Hi everyone,
Wow,this is a great topic. I really appreciate everyones insight and opinions.
I have to say,in my opinion,CBT is very effective for most peeople.I suffered from panic attacks and anxiety and eventually became agoraphobic. That was 8 to 9 years ago and my life has changed considerably-for the better of coarse.
I know in my case my negative scary thoughts contributed to my behaviors. I use to always say "where ever I go there I am". I use to dream that I would one day Unzip my skin from head to toe,step out, and the real me would emerge. I felt like I was two people, the negative thinker and the real me.
Where I am today is due to all the research and books I obtained during that time in my life. Therapy,in my case was not successful. I was going through a very difficult time in my life when the anxiety came a calling . The root of the problem for me was obvious,I had to learn a new way of thinking and coping with that problem not re-thinking it over and over. I agree Don57, you can't live in the past, you have to deal with today(something like that). I changed my thoughts ,I practiced being positive , and I let my thoughts pass in and out. Now after reading The Power Of Now I learned to be more conscious,a new concept I have added and practiced in my life.
I think everyone realizes that we are all different, you have to find what works for you. I still have stress and anxiety,the difference is now I don't let those nasty thoughts take me down that road again. I tell myself no matter what I can get through anything ,simply because this is life and life is not always fair. Everything changed for me when I let go of my old way of thinking. Of coarse I did many other effective things to cope with the anxiety however "restructuring my thinking" was key for me.
Stubborn Anxiety
Klinkos, thank you. I am hanging in there. I have no choice if I want to overcome this.
Don, what I said about CBT was in general. You're absolutely right when you say there's more to it than that.
My point is that for a lot of people, doing Lucinda's program ONLY is enough. For me I've learned (the hard way) that it's not. So in addition to the CBT I am also doing:
Talk therapy once a week - I've seen how this is crucial for MY recovery. This is what's helping me the most in dealing with the trauma in a way that no other therapy can. It helps too that I have been lucky enough to finally have found an extremely skilled therapist who has a lot of experience as well as insight into my specific problems.
I'm working a self-help program that's specifically for emetophobia. My "talk therapist" is also coaching me through this. So I'm doing the work myself at home, but I have her to run things by if I get stuck or whatever.
Mindfulness Meditation class once a week. This really helps in quieting the mind and training me to stay in the moment and therefore gently pushing aside those endless negative thoughts that have been a constant companion in the background of my life every minute of every day.
Art Therapy Group once a week - this one has been surprisingly HUGE - mainly because I am so NOT an artist - in "bringing up" (notice the wording there) some very intense emotions that in and of themselves scare me but with the help of the art therapist, I can deal with and work through.
Mental Health Recovery Through the Food-Mood Connection class once a week. This is helping me determine what foods interact well (make me feel better) with my body and mind chemistry and which trigger uncomfortable feelings I don't want (anxiety, depression, nausea, insomnia, etc.). At the end of this I'll have determined a "diet" that is best for me. Food is medicine, so what better thing could I do for myself than eat what makes me healthier and avoid what makes me sick?
Exercise - weights and cardio - in that order. My personal trainer has taught me how following a regular exercise routine helps people with anxiety/depression tremendously. "In that order" because "feel good hormones" are released into the muscles when you lift weights and then the cardio helps distribute those hormones throughout my body better than if I did it the other way around.
I also attend an Al-Anon group once a week - helps me deal with the negative effects the alcoholic environment I lived in growing up has had on me. Before Al-Anon I believed that because I'm no longer physically IN that environement, then I should not be affected by it. Wrong! Some things linger and haunt us all our lives if we don't deal with them properly, doesn't matter how old you are or how far away from that environment you take yourself physically.
Lastly, but certainly not least, along with my physical and mental well-being, my spirtual well-being is equally important, so so I'm meeting once a week with my spiritual advisor who is helping me to reach a healthy and balanced level of spirituality.
Is that A LOT to do? YES! It's a full time job! But since I can't work anyway thanks to this disorder becoming THAT debilitating, I have decided that I may as well make recovery my "job" so I put in as much time and effort into that as I would into my job if I was working. So I've decided to not even try to work for a full year, and devote that year to recovering. I think that's a realistic time frame.
Of course I know that not everyone is in a position to quit working altogether and do what I'm doing. We all have to decide what our own individual priorities are and find the time we need to devote to the most important things in our lives. The most important thing in my life - number 1 on my priority list - right now is my health (physical, mental, spiritual) because if I don't have that, I won't be much good to anyone else and I won't be able to accomplish and ENJOY much. So giving up a year of earning money, for me, at this point in my life, is MORE than worth it.
Don, I hope that gives you an idea of what else is out there, as you asked. I've also dabbled in hypnosis - that was fantastic. Unfortunately it's not covered by our canadian healthcare so this is something I can't afford to do regularly. If I could, I would every day. Do some research, try different things, find what works for you - and you'll know what works for you because you'll be feeling better. Good luck! (to everyone)
Wow, sorry this is so long!
Don, what I said about CBT was in general. You're absolutely right when you say there's more to it than that.
My point is that for a lot of people, doing Lucinda's program ONLY is enough. For me I've learned (the hard way) that it's not. So in addition to the CBT I am also doing:
Talk therapy once a week - I've seen how this is crucial for MY recovery. This is what's helping me the most in dealing with the trauma in a way that no other therapy can. It helps too that I have been lucky enough to finally have found an extremely skilled therapist who has a lot of experience as well as insight into my specific problems.
I'm working a self-help program that's specifically for emetophobia. My "talk therapist" is also coaching me through this. So I'm doing the work myself at home, but I have her to run things by if I get stuck or whatever.
Mindfulness Meditation class once a week. This really helps in quieting the mind and training me to stay in the moment and therefore gently pushing aside those endless negative thoughts that have been a constant companion in the background of my life every minute of every day.
Art Therapy Group once a week - this one has been surprisingly HUGE - mainly because I am so NOT an artist - in "bringing up" (notice the wording there) some very intense emotions that in and of themselves scare me but with the help of the art therapist, I can deal with and work through.
Mental Health Recovery Through the Food-Mood Connection class once a week. This is helping me determine what foods interact well (make me feel better) with my body and mind chemistry and which trigger uncomfortable feelings I don't want (anxiety, depression, nausea, insomnia, etc.). At the end of this I'll have determined a "diet" that is best for me. Food is medicine, so what better thing could I do for myself than eat what makes me healthier and avoid what makes me sick?
Exercise - weights and cardio - in that order. My personal trainer has taught me how following a regular exercise routine helps people with anxiety/depression tremendously. "In that order" because "feel good hormones" are released into the muscles when you lift weights and then the cardio helps distribute those hormones throughout my body better than if I did it the other way around.
I also attend an Al-Anon group once a week - helps me deal with the negative effects the alcoholic environment I lived in growing up has had on me. Before Al-Anon I believed that because I'm no longer physically IN that environement, then I should not be affected by it. Wrong! Some things linger and haunt us all our lives if we don't deal with them properly, doesn't matter how old you are or how far away from that environment you take yourself physically.
Lastly, but certainly not least, along with my physical and mental well-being, my spirtual well-being is equally important, so so I'm meeting once a week with my spiritual advisor who is helping me to reach a healthy and balanced level of spirituality.
Is that A LOT to do? YES! It's a full time job! But since I can't work anyway thanks to this disorder becoming THAT debilitating, I have decided that I may as well make recovery my "job" so I put in as much time and effort into that as I would into my job if I was working. So I've decided to not even try to work for a full year, and devote that year to recovering. I think that's a realistic time frame.
Of course I know that not everyone is in a position to quit working altogether and do what I'm doing. We all have to decide what our own individual priorities are and find the time we need to devote to the most important things in our lives. The most important thing in my life - number 1 on my priority list - right now is my health (physical, mental, spiritual) because if I don't have that, I won't be much good to anyone else and I won't be able to accomplish and ENJOY much. So giving up a year of earning money, for me, at this point in my life, is MORE than worth it.
Don, I hope that gives you an idea of what else is out there, as you asked. I've also dabbled in hypnosis - that was fantastic. Unfortunately it's not covered by our canadian healthcare so this is something I can't afford to do regularly. If I could, I would every day. Do some research, try different things, find what works for you - and you'll know what works for you because you'll be feeling better. Good luck! (to everyone)
Wow, sorry this is so long!
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Guest
Thanks Emma, for your reply. I know that I was over-protected to a degree growing up and that has had a very adverse impact on me even though it was out of love. My Mother lost a baby about 18 months before I was born, so I think maybe there was some psychological need for her to do some of this perhaps. I really don't know why it happened. I am at fault to a degree. I ximply didn't know any better. But I find that my depression has been just as dibilitating as anyone who has suffered abuse. I also find that my thinking has been very similar. But, in counseling with 3 different psychologists they never sought to try and go back to determine why I am the way I am. I've gained insight over the years to figure a lot of it out, but I still have questions.
My main problem has been depression rather than anxiety. Seeking to journal the bothersome thoughts, job failures, college difficulties and failures, and seeking to deal with unintended abuse of my son was critical for me to climb out of the hole. Distraction only didn't work for me. I am not that good at coming up with replacement thoughts now, but when I was working with this heavily about 4 and 5 years ago, writing down compassionate replacement thoughts literally cancelled the power of the negative ones I had towards myself. I "felt" this occur as I was writing. One minute I was troubled and the next I was free of the troubling emotions by writing replacement thoughts. So, I can very much relate to the theory that our thoughts create our feelings.
At some point I may try and see a psychologist again now that I understand to a great degree what the counseling will be about. I was clueless before.
I am not convinced my current problem is thought related, but I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt and starting to go through the program again. I haven't worked with it in about 4 years.
I hope you and everyone else finds the recovery you deserve. Good luck in your journey.
And Sparkus, I apologize for hijacking your thread. Sorry.
My main problem has been depression rather than anxiety. Seeking to journal the bothersome thoughts, job failures, college difficulties and failures, and seeking to deal with unintended abuse of my son was critical for me to climb out of the hole. Distraction only didn't work for me. I am not that good at coming up with replacement thoughts now, but when I was working with this heavily about 4 and 5 years ago, writing down compassionate replacement thoughts literally cancelled the power of the negative ones I had towards myself. I "felt" this occur as I was writing. One minute I was troubled and the next I was free of the troubling emotions by writing replacement thoughts. So, I can very much relate to the theory that our thoughts create our feelings.
At some point I may try and see a psychologist again now that I understand to a great degree what the counseling will be about. I was clueless before.
I am not convinced my current problem is thought related, but I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt and starting to go through the program again. I haven't worked with it in about 4 years.
I hope you and everyone else finds the recovery you deserve. Good luck in your journey.
And Sparkus, I apologize for hijacking your thread. Sorry.
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Guest
Hello All,
Wow- what responses! I appreciate what everyone is saying here and this has certainly raised a lot of interesting points- good job to all! No, Don, you aren't hijacking the thread at all. In fact your insights and many more on here have proven very helpful to me so thank you.
I'm not sure what to add here except to say that since we are all unique people the path to healing our own inner afflictions will also be unique. Emma- I was blown away by how many different activities you are engaging in! More power to you! I think we must find our own unique formula that works in healing and unleashing ourselves from our limits.
The past does reach into the present and affects our future. Until we come to terms with our past we will continue to see the past play a role in how we are evolving. I do see my anxiety as playing a vital role in my self-understanding. Until I come to terms with my own personal history and be able to make new decisions and develop new beliefs I will still have things 'eat at' me. My anxiety serves a purpose for me and if that is what I need propel me to live at a higher level then it is useful, although so uncomfortable.
Wow- what responses! I appreciate what everyone is saying here and this has certainly raised a lot of interesting points- good job to all! No, Don, you aren't hijacking the thread at all. In fact your insights and many more on here have proven very helpful to me so thank you.
I'm not sure what to add here except to say that since we are all unique people the path to healing our own inner afflictions will also be unique. Emma- I was blown away by how many different activities you are engaging in! More power to you! I think we must find our own unique formula that works in healing and unleashing ourselves from our limits.
The past does reach into the present and affects our future. Until we come to terms with our past we will continue to see the past play a role in how we are evolving. I do see my anxiety as playing a vital role in my self-understanding. Until I come to terms with my own personal history and be able to make new decisions and develop new beliefs I will still have things 'eat at' me. My anxiety serves a purpose for me and if that is what I need propel me to live at a higher level then it is useful, although so uncomfortable.
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Guest
Don, in my own search for the "perfect" therapist, I've learned that even though they are the professional, sometimes we, the client/patient, have to steer them in the direction we want them to coach us during the course of our recovery. Does that make sense? So TELL your therapist that you want to explore the WHY you're this way. If s/he isn't agreeable to your needs, find someone who is. Most of us put more time and effort into shopping around for a car than we do shopping around for a person (therapist/doctor) we're going to trust with our health and well-being.Originally posted by Don57:
But, in counseling with 3 different psychologists they never sought to try and go back to determine why I am the way I am. I've gained insight over the years to figure a lot of it out, but I still have questions.
Sparkus, I forgot to mention that I'm also taking vitamin and mineral supplements, but not a generic over-the-counter type. I had my doctor test me to determine what, if anything, I was deficient in... and so she prescribed only what I need in the proper amounts. This way I know for sure that I'm putting into my body only what it needs. Too few nutrients are unhealthy and too many of some are toxic.
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Guest
Emma,
I'm not convinced that I don't already understand the why. I think that I do - over-protection, lack of affirmatiuon, and perhaps some neglect, all of which is viewed as abusive, but I know my parents did the very best they could and never intended anything detrimental toward me. One thing I have learned as a parent of a 23 yo son and that is that we are all going to make mistakes as parents. No one will escape being "imperfect."
Insight into "why' we are who we are is useful, my own insight has helped me understand why I think and behave as I do, for the most part. Comparing that to what is considered a range of "normal" thinking has helped me achieve the recovery that I have. Money is the problem as far as therapy. My son is still in college and I'm not working at this point.
To be honest I'm a bit jaded about seeking therapy after what I've experienced. This is distorted thinking to a degree, but is partly true - after learning about CBT, I know better than anyone how to fix ME.
I have "normal" anxiety now, not on meds for anxiety anymore. I was on Valium or Buspar or a combination of the two for 27 years. I've been off of them for almost 5 years now. I am still on a low dose of two older anti-depressants and they to a degree help with anxiety.
This is what I think because of what I have experienced so far. It applies to depression, but I don't know how much applies to anxiety. Some of this I've already stated.
Emotions result from what we think. All experiences must be processed through your brain and given a conscious meaning before you experience any emotional response. Every bad feeling we have is created by negative or pessimistic thinking. If your thinking is unrealistic, the feelings they create will also be out of touch with reality. But, these abnormal emotions "feel" just as valid and realistic as feelings created by undistorted thoughts. Therefore, feelings are not necessarily facts or reality.
When we are children what we think of ourselves, our self-esteem, is dependent upon our parents or those who are raising and providing for us. We are in physical and emotional development. We are dependent. If abuse, neglect, or other negative things occur during this time [such as a loving but imperfect parent who is dysfunctional as a result of his own childhood], we won’t possess the emotional maturity and independent capacity to see the circumstances objectively. Instead of having the foresight to understand that Dad had a poor upbringing and as a result is now an alcoholic who takes his childhood anger out on his family, because we are dependent we think that the parent is always right and conclude that we are at fault. The parent’s negative behavior impacts us negatively and we begin to think toward ourselves in a negative light. I can't over emphasize that I believe it is our thinking which causes us to view ourselves negatively. This negative thinking creates negative emotions. Even though it was Dad’s inappropriate behavior [insert your own situation here] and we were not at fault, that is not how we see it as children due to being dependent emotionally upon the parent. The abuse, neglect, etc., causes us to think negatively towards ourselves which becomes a habit that we carry with us into adulthood. Our emotional growth may be halted until we begin to try and work on ourselves in adulthood. We “feel” [emotions are based upon illogical/unrealistic thinking developed in childhood] inadequate, unloved, worthless, anxious, scared, depressed, etc. as a result of what has happened to us in the past. We are not any of these things, but we “feel” this way due to how we learned to think toward ourselves as children and we conclude this is who we are.
Because thinking created how we “feel” [emotions] now, learning the truth [the why] and how to think differently can create new, healthy emotions which can empower us to achieve significant recovery, perhaps complete recovery one day. But, if we can't come up with the why, we can still achieve significant recovery because we can still learn to change our thinking and in so doing change how we feel and behave.
There are steps one can take to learn how to think, feel, and behave differently. We may need a professional to help us with this. We need to learn how to recognize and write down the self-critical thoughts, then we need to learn why these thoughts are distorted/unrealistic, and we need to practice talking back to them with truth in order to develop a more realistic self-evaluation system. As I see it, there are different methods to accomplish these tasks, through therapists, meds, and different types of psychoanalytic therapy. The StressCenter.com program also provides a set of tools to accomplish this either as part of an overall approach or by itself, depending on the individual’s needs.
However, what I see as the fundamental problem is how we learned to think and therefore feel about ourselves in our developmental years. Changing that will change how we feel and behave. That’s my take on all of this.
If we learn that it was not our fault, that can aid us in feeling worthy to achieve recovery. That has been my struggle, feeling worthy of recovery. I don't see it as my parent's fault, since no one does a perfect job as a parent and any abusive behavior was unintended. I just wish that when I told my Mother at age 17 that my team and I were going to the state tournament that she would have believed in me. She expressed exactly the opposite. Well, we got there, damn it. Then when I went for tryouts for college her behavior also expressed a total lack of understanding of what I needed and a lack of respect and belief in me. I always interpreted this as, "poor baby can't take care of himself."
I'm not convinced that I don't already understand the why. I think that I do - over-protection, lack of affirmatiuon, and perhaps some neglect, all of which is viewed as abusive, but I know my parents did the very best they could and never intended anything detrimental toward me. One thing I have learned as a parent of a 23 yo son and that is that we are all going to make mistakes as parents. No one will escape being "imperfect."
Insight into "why' we are who we are is useful, my own insight has helped me understand why I think and behave as I do, for the most part. Comparing that to what is considered a range of "normal" thinking has helped me achieve the recovery that I have. Money is the problem as far as therapy. My son is still in college and I'm not working at this point.
To be honest I'm a bit jaded about seeking therapy after what I've experienced. This is distorted thinking to a degree, but is partly true - after learning about CBT, I know better than anyone how to fix ME.
I have "normal" anxiety now, not on meds for anxiety anymore. I was on Valium or Buspar or a combination of the two for 27 years. I've been off of them for almost 5 years now. I am still on a low dose of two older anti-depressants and they to a degree help with anxiety.
This is what I think because of what I have experienced so far. It applies to depression, but I don't know how much applies to anxiety. Some of this I've already stated.
Emotions result from what we think. All experiences must be processed through your brain and given a conscious meaning before you experience any emotional response. Every bad feeling we have is created by negative or pessimistic thinking. If your thinking is unrealistic, the feelings they create will also be out of touch with reality. But, these abnormal emotions "feel" just as valid and realistic as feelings created by undistorted thoughts. Therefore, feelings are not necessarily facts or reality.
When we are children what we think of ourselves, our self-esteem, is dependent upon our parents or those who are raising and providing for us. We are in physical and emotional development. We are dependent. If abuse, neglect, or other negative things occur during this time [such as a loving but imperfect parent who is dysfunctional as a result of his own childhood], we won’t possess the emotional maturity and independent capacity to see the circumstances objectively. Instead of having the foresight to understand that Dad had a poor upbringing and as a result is now an alcoholic who takes his childhood anger out on his family, because we are dependent we think that the parent is always right and conclude that we are at fault. The parent’s negative behavior impacts us negatively and we begin to think toward ourselves in a negative light. I can't over emphasize that I believe it is our thinking which causes us to view ourselves negatively. This negative thinking creates negative emotions. Even though it was Dad’s inappropriate behavior [insert your own situation here] and we were not at fault, that is not how we see it as children due to being dependent emotionally upon the parent. The abuse, neglect, etc., causes us to think negatively towards ourselves which becomes a habit that we carry with us into adulthood. Our emotional growth may be halted until we begin to try and work on ourselves in adulthood. We “feel” [emotions are based upon illogical/unrealistic thinking developed in childhood] inadequate, unloved, worthless, anxious, scared, depressed, etc. as a result of what has happened to us in the past. We are not any of these things, but we “feel” this way due to how we learned to think toward ourselves as children and we conclude this is who we are.
Because thinking created how we “feel” [emotions] now, learning the truth [the why] and how to think differently can create new, healthy emotions which can empower us to achieve significant recovery, perhaps complete recovery one day. But, if we can't come up with the why, we can still achieve significant recovery because we can still learn to change our thinking and in so doing change how we feel and behave.
There are steps one can take to learn how to think, feel, and behave differently. We may need a professional to help us with this. We need to learn how to recognize and write down the self-critical thoughts, then we need to learn why these thoughts are distorted/unrealistic, and we need to practice talking back to them with truth in order to develop a more realistic self-evaluation system. As I see it, there are different methods to accomplish these tasks, through therapists, meds, and different types of psychoanalytic therapy. The StressCenter.com program also provides a set of tools to accomplish this either as part of an overall approach or by itself, depending on the individual’s needs.
However, what I see as the fundamental problem is how we learned to think and therefore feel about ourselves in our developmental years. Changing that will change how we feel and behave. That’s my take on all of this.
If we learn that it was not our fault, that can aid us in feeling worthy to achieve recovery. That has been my struggle, feeling worthy of recovery. I don't see it as my parent's fault, since no one does a perfect job as a parent and any abusive behavior was unintended. I just wish that when I told my Mother at age 17 that my team and I were going to the state tournament that she would have believed in me. She expressed exactly the opposite. Well, we got there, damn it. Then when I went for tryouts for college her behavior also expressed a total lack of understanding of what I needed and a lack of respect and belief in me. I always interpreted this as, "poor baby can't take care of himself."
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My Path to Peace
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:14 pm
Hello Don and thank you for sharing your thoughts. Without knowing it you have touched my place more than what you would believe. started having my problems after our family had gone through some hard times. It started out slowly and then was a year of a time where I felt trapped and my all just wasn't enough. Not for the situation but in general and I wasn't able to do the perfect job. Like I say it was a trapped feeling for a year. I finally left it and then again went into another situation which I again was trapped. Then as bad as it sounds we had home changes where we felt trapped again. This time for 5 years where it was less than always desirable again.
We moved and had less going on for 3 1/2 months and I had vertually no symptoms. Now we are back in the old situation again to a degree and here they came again. I have no choice but to live with it for the next few months. So I am just doing my best to deal at this point.
If you don't mind keep me in your thoughts and prayers. And I will think and pray for you.
We moved and had less going on for 3 1/2 months and I had vertually no symptoms. Now we are back in the old situation again to a degree and here they came again. I have no choice but to live with it for the next few months. So I am just doing my best to deal at this point.
If you don't mind keep me in your thoughts and prayers. And I will think and pray for you.
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Guest
In my experience having years of therapy trying to get to the past root of my anxiety did nothing. I can't tell you how many times I repeated the same story to several therapists. I knew I probably had GAD, I knew I had some traumatic events at a young age, I knew it was effecting me in adulthood. CBT is the only thing that makes a difference for me. I view my past in a different way now. I see positive things from my past now that before were discounted. I have a list of good and positive things from my childhood that I read over daily(no matter how trivial) and now see that my negative filtering had colored a lot of my interpretation. When some of these negative events pop up in my mind I force myself to go over my list of good things to get myself out of the thinking habit of believing it was all bad. This is my experience though and I realize that not everyone has the same life events.
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Don, whether or not your parents MEANT to be abusive, you WERE abused... and you're left to deal with the consequences of that. It's like if someone shoots you by accident, they didn't MEAN to kill you but you're still as dead as if they meant to take your life. Having said that, it sounds like you have a good handle on things and have found what works for you, so keep doing what you're doing - you will overcome this.
Penu, thank you for your very kind words. Are you no longer agoraphobic at all? And what did you do during that year, if I may ask?
Penu, thank you for your very kind words. Are you no longer agoraphobic at all? And what did you do during that year, if I may ask?