I have wasted SO MUCH time, energy, and money trying to get rid of these stupid panic attacks. I've had them for 32 years now, and I'm so damn tired of them!!!!
EVERY time I go ANYWHERE to try to get help for my panic attacks (including here) I get the same old "you must go out and experience your panic attacks" bull***t. But NO ONE can tell me HOW that's supposed to work!!!
How does experiencing MORE of them help anything?!! I avoid situations where I know I'm going to have panic attacks, PRECISELY BECAUSE THEY CAUSE PAIN! WHY would I want to go out and cause more pain ON PURPOSE?!!!! THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!!!
So can someone PLEASE tell me how I'm supposed to get rid of these stupid things -- WITHOUT going out and experiencing MORE of them?! Because that simply DOES NOT WORK for me. It never has. I simply WILL NOT go out and deliberately cause more panic attacks. I refuse to do that. You may as well ask me to cut off a limb, because it's not gonna happen.
There MUST be a solution that DOES NOT involve PURPOSELY creating MORE PAIN!!! There MUST! I simply CAN NOT BE the ONLY person who feels like this!!!
EDIT: Maybe I can put it in a clearer fashion... If experiencing panic attacks helps to cure panic attacks, then why haven't I been cured by the tens-of-thousands of panic attacks I've experienced in the past 32 years?
WHEN WILL THEY STOP?!!!
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Ninjafrodo2
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:05 am
Re: WHEN WILL THEY STOP?!!!
It sounds like you are really suffering alot Laurence, living with panic attacks is very difficult, I know, i've had them since I was 12 and i'm 31 now, I get it! I've been with the program for a decade now and I struggled alot with this exposure stuff myself and I felt exactly like you did mainly within the last year (2014 which I made my year of facing fears) I've done that and I've gone through that exposure with walking around without my headphones on, with socializing, with karaoke, making youtube videos and even improv class. And i'm not saying that to boast, i'm saying that because I want you to know that I've gone through that and I know what i'm talking about.
Now to answer your question....notice in the first sentence where I said you are really suffering and not that you are in alot of pain? There's a difference! If exposing yourself to situations that causes the body symptoms is viewed the exact same way as you experience them now then yeah of course you aren't going to want to go through that...I don't blame you for trying to protect yourself from feeling that intense suffering! Exposure however is not the same as regularly feeling a panic attack....if you go through any kind of exposure without any kind of new skills or practice of those skills, ones that will help you to get through the moment and know you actually are safe, then yeah you are going to feel a full fledge panic attack and you will not benefit from that exposure.
The point i'm trying to make is if you learn how to calm yourself down and sooth yourself and accept the body symptoms as they happen (these body symptoms and the panic attack are really just normal human responses that are highly amped up), you can get through the exposure without that suffering...it will feel uncomfortable but not exscrutiating...it only feels exscrutiating when you fight it, run away from it or deny it....in buddhism this concept is called the second arrow (google it if you'd like).
And to make this more of a personal response from me....I recently started doing improv for anxiety and yeah thats exposure, it has been really uncomfortable but i've learned to accept these feelings i'm going through instead of fighting them........one of the main reasons why I started to accept these feelings is because of what we were taught in class about emotions.....when you see certain emotions as bad then you become afraid of them...when you become afraid of them you resist them and they hang around more and become more and more intense...they build and they build and in order to protect yourself, you start to associate those feelings with the siutations you were in when you got them and then you start avoiding those situations....but those feelings keep coming up in other situations and then you start avoiding those all the way until you cannot avoid them because you cannot avoid yourself.
However, if you start allowing yourself to feel these emotions (maybe on your own at first and a little bit at a time) and you sit with them, you can experience a whole new sensation with each emotion than you did before......its possible to feel sadness, anger, fear or whatever in a peaceful way.........it sounds strange and maybe wierd but it can be really soothing and cathartic and in that allowing, it runs its course and then it leaves....I'm not talking theoretically, this is actually my own experience!
I spend time and listen to really sad music and let myself think about and feel my past pain and its comforting and i'm able to grieve and let go.....
...I've gone the opposite end this one time when I got extremely upset that my friend was going to university. I was upset because he was working towards a goal, he was moving on with his life and my life was passing me by because of my limitations........I was feeling like shit, his moving forward for me just highlighted my insecurities and how I was stuck....I tried talking to someone on the phone, I tried writing stuff down and man I was feeling this upset really strongly when I was trying not to....that didn't seem to work and I actually escalated it till I felt hopeless and actually suicidal to be completely honest....I finally gave up trying not to feel what I was feeling and I went with the feeling instead...thats when I went to my computer and just listened to really sad music and watched sad videos...I gave into the feeling (I didn't act on them, that is very different) and I just let myself feel that and it passed and I felt better....because I allowed it.
I can tell you of another story when I went on an airplane for the first time....I was having a full on anxiety attack while we were escalating....I hadn't anticipated that fear but there it was....my body felt really hot, I was shaking, my body was in a state of muscular tension where I was grabbing onto the arm rests for dear life and my arm and shoulder and neck muscles were all tight, I was sweating and it was evident to the people beside me, they asked me if I was ok and I told them no.....however, at the time I had been practicing mindfulness meditation for about 6 weeks and we were taught to just allow ourselves to feel what was going on and thats what I did...it felt really uncomfortable but not the worst I've ever had or where I absolutely had to leave, it seemed somewhat borderline to that but I was ok and on the way back from cuba (which is where I was heading), I didn't have that anxiety attack at all!
Sometimes accepting and feeling comfortable with these feelings means to actually see other people go through them...to know that its ok....we can talk about this stuff until we're blue in the face and it could mean absolutely nothing or it could mean very little....you want to really understand, find videos of people going through those emotions and see what happens. If you want, I actually recorded my before and after for my improv classes, you could even watch me feeling anxiety before, if that would help you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfZ2aUy ... N8wc6q0sP6
Mike
Now to answer your question....notice in the first sentence where I said you are really suffering and not that you are in alot of pain? There's a difference! If exposing yourself to situations that causes the body symptoms is viewed the exact same way as you experience them now then yeah of course you aren't going to want to go through that...I don't blame you for trying to protect yourself from feeling that intense suffering! Exposure however is not the same as regularly feeling a panic attack....if you go through any kind of exposure without any kind of new skills or practice of those skills, ones that will help you to get through the moment and know you actually are safe, then yeah you are going to feel a full fledge panic attack and you will not benefit from that exposure.
The point i'm trying to make is if you learn how to calm yourself down and sooth yourself and accept the body symptoms as they happen (these body symptoms and the panic attack are really just normal human responses that are highly amped up), you can get through the exposure without that suffering...it will feel uncomfortable but not exscrutiating...it only feels exscrutiating when you fight it, run away from it or deny it....in buddhism this concept is called the second arrow (google it if you'd like).
And to make this more of a personal response from me....I recently started doing improv for anxiety and yeah thats exposure, it has been really uncomfortable but i've learned to accept these feelings i'm going through instead of fighting them........one of the main reasons why I started to accept these feelings is because of what we were taught in class about emotions.....when you see certain emotions as bad then you become afraid of them...when you become afraid of them you resist them and they hang around more and become more and more intense...they build and they build and in order to protect yourself, you start to associate those feelings with the siutations you were in when you got them and then you start avoiding those situations....but those feelings keep coming up in other situations and then you start avoiding those all the way until you cannot avoid them because you cannot avoid yourself.
However, if you start allowing yourself to feel these emotions (maybe on your own at first and a little bit at a time) and you sit with them, you can experience a whole new sensation with each emotion than you did before......its possible to feel sadness, anger, fear or whatever in a peaceful way.........it sounds strange and maybe wierd but it can be really soothing and cathartic and in that allowing, it runs its course and then it leaves....I'm not talking theoretically, this is actually my own experience!
I spend time and listen to really sad music and let myself think about and feel my past pain and its comforting and i'm able to grieve and let go.....
...I've gone the opposite end this one time when I got extremely upset that my friend was going to university. I was upset because he was working towards a goal, he was moving on with his life and my life was passing me by because of my limitations........I was feeling like shit, his moving forward for me just highlighted my insecurities and how I was stuck....I tried talking to someone on the phone, I tried writing stuff down and man I was feeling this upset really strongly when I was trying not to....that didn't seem to work and I actually escalated it till I felt hopeless and actually suicidal to be completely honest....I finally gave up trying not to feel what I was feeling and I went with the feeling instead...thats when I went to my computer and just listened to really sad music and watched sad videos...I gave into the feeling (I didn't act on them, that is very different) and I just let myself feel that and it passed and I felt better....because I allowed it.
I can tell you of another story when I went on an airplane for the first time....I was having a full on anxiety attack while we were escalating....I hadn't anticipated that fear but there it was....my body felt really hot, I was shaking, my body was in a state of muscular tension where I was grabbing onto the arm rests for dear life and my arm and shoulder and neck muscles were all tight, I was sweating and it was evident to the people beside me, they asked me if I was ok and I told them no.....however, at the time I had been practicing mindfulness meditation for about 6 weeks and we were taught to just allow ourselves to feel what was going on and thats what I did...it felt really uncomfortable but not the worst I've ever had or where I absolutely had to leave, it seemed somewhat borderline to that but I was ok and on the way back from cuba (which is where I was heading), I didn't have that anxiety attack at all!
Sometimes accepting and feeling comfortable with these feelings means to actually see other people go through them...to know that its ok....we can talk about this stuff until we're blue in the face and it could mean absolutely nothing or it could mean very little....you want to really understand, find videos of people going through those emotions and see what happens. If you want, I actually recorded my before and after for my improv classes, you could even watch me feeling anxiety before, if that would help you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfZ2aUy ... N8wc6q0sP6
Mike
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Laurence5905
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:37 pm
Re: WHEN WILL THEY STOP?!!!
Thank you for taking the time to write out what is clearly a well-thought-out response, and one into which you clearly put some time. I appreciate it.
I've never been able to tell the difference between "exposure" and a full-fledged panic attack. To me, they are exactly the same. I am completely unable to relax until I get back home. When I travel beyond my comfort zone, I am anxious. Period. I cannot relax at all. All those relaxation techniques that I try to practice at home simply do not work when I'm not at home.
I've never been able to *not* fight these feelings. Because I know what's coming. I know the suffering that will accompany them if I allow them to run wild. I cannot *not* fight them. Giving in to them feels like giving up. If I give into them, they will take over and I will *never* recover from them. At least that what it feels like.
"Face it, Accept it, Float through it, Let time pass." I've heard that more times than I can count. But I simply cannot accept these feelings! I want to get *rid* of them! I don't want to accept them at all! I don't want them to be a part of my life at all! I want them GONE. Accepting them means giving in! I cannot do that! If I accept them, that just invites them to stick around and get even more vicious. Again -- that's what it feels like.
If only the relaxation techniques would work when I'm *not* at home, when I'm out having a gigantic panic attack, then maybe I could believe that "exposure" would work at some point in the future. Maybe. But they don't work at all for me, except when I'm already at home, where I don't need them.
How do you get them to work when you're in a situation where you're most definitely *not* relaxed? I've never once been able to do that... Never.
I've never been able to tell the difference between "exposure" and a full-fledged panic attack. To me, they are exactly the same. I am completely unable to relax until I get back home. When I travel beyond my comfort zone, I am anxious. Period. I cannot relax at all. All those relaxation techniques that I try to practice at home simply do not work when I'm not at home.
I've never been able to *not* fight these feelings. Because I know what's coming. I know the suffering that will accompany them if I allow them to run wild. I cannot *not* fight them. Giving in to them feels like giving up. If I give into them, they will take over and I will *never* recover from them. At least that what it feels like.
"Face it, Accept it, Float through it, Let time pass." I've heard that more times than I can count. But I simply cannot accept these feelings! I want to get *rid* of them! I don't want to accept them at all! I don't want them to be a part of my life at all! I want them GONE. Accepting them means giving in! I cannot do that! If I accept them, that just invites them to stick around and get even more vicious. Again -- that's what it feels like.
If only the relaxation techniques would work when I'm *not* at home, when I'm out having a gigantic panic attack, then maybe I could believe that "exposure" would work at some point in the future. Maybe. But they don't work at all for me, except when I'm already at home, where I don't need them.
How do you get them to work when you're in a situation where you're most definitely *not* relaxed? I've never once been able to do that... Never.
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Ninjafrodo2
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:05 am
Re: WHEN WILL THEY STOP?!!!
You're welcome, I want to try to help as much as I can.
Its an interesting paradox, one that seems very real through our feelings as you are experiencing now where it feels like if you give in they will stick around and yet what is it like when you don't give in? do they leave or do they stick around? That may not be an easy concept to accept right now and its ok, you don't have to accept that right now....it took me like 9 or 10 years to accept that myself....why is that? well I read somewhere that the best way to explain to a non-anxious sufferer is that its like lying down on railroad tracks and resisting getting up when a train is coming! Its very scary, our brains make us think we are in danger and try to get us out of there to protect ourselves...the thing is, we aren't in danger it just feels like we are.
Its ok to feel sad sometimes or angry, hurt, frustrated or whatever uncomfortable feeling it is...its just when it becomes extremely intense, thats where it can be problematic.
The relaxation cd is good for calming us down when we use it in that moment...I don't however know how frequently you use it but if you end up using it for a consistent ammount of time, it teaches the body how to calm down at any point but it probabbly won't prevent those feelings from coming up, they may just go away quicker and it will become easier to differentiate that its anxiety body symptoms and perceived threat as opposed to real threats. Those feelings aren't going to go away, fear and anxiety are apart of life, and they have their purposes however, that doesn't mean they have to always be extremely intense where on a scale of 1 to 10 you are feeling them at 1,000,000.............let me ask you a question...have you ever watched a tv show or movie when something happened that made you afraid but it wasn't really panicky and you could tolerate it?
Mike
Its an interesting paradox, one that seems very real through our feelings as you are experiencing now where it feels like if you give in they will stick around and yet what is it like when you don't give in? do they leave or do they stick around? That may not be an easy concept to accept right now and its ok, you don't have to accept that right now....it took me like 9 or 10 years to accept that myself....why is that? well I read somewhere that the best way to explain to a non-anxious sufferer is that its like lying down on railroad tracks and resisting getting up when a train is coming! Its very scary, our brains make us think we are in danger and try to get us out of there to protect ourselves...the thing is, we aren't in danger it just feels like we are.
Its ok to feel sad sometimes or angry, hurt, frustrated or whatever uncomfortable feeling it is...its just when it becomes extremely intense, thats where it can be problematic.
The relaxation cd is good for calming us down when we use it in that moment...I don't however know how frequently you use it but if you end up using it for a consistent ammount of time, it teaches the body how to calm down at any point but it probabbly won't prevent those feelings from coming up, they may just go away quicker and it will become easier to differentiate that its anxiety body symptoms and perceived threat as opposed to real threats. Those feelings aren't going to go away, fear and anxiety are apart of life, and they have their purposes however, that doesn't mean they have to always be extremely intense where on a scale of 1 to 10 you are feeling them at 1,000,000.............let me ask you a question...have you ever watched a tv show or movie when something happened that made you afraid but it wasn't really panicky and you could tolerate it?
Mike
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ellenfisher
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:33 pm
Re: WHEN WILL THEY STOP?!!!
Laurence,
I don't know what I would have ever done without my Stress Center coach Dana. Forget challenging my fears, I couldn't even listen to Session 2 it gave me so much panic. She helped me get through it and now two years later I'm recovered and I have faced many of my fears, not all of them yet, but that's ok I will when the right time presents itself. I no longer fear the fears I have successfully challenged and know the ones to come will work out well in time. I sometimes feel some anxiety, but that's human and I know exactly how to take care of myself with all the practice I've had.
I would strongly recommend you get a coach if you don't have one and try a new one if you have tried one before. I assume you have worked through the CD Sessions and finished the workbook as well. I know that honestly, for me, I needed my coach to work through it with me--I don't think in the condition I was in I could have successfully done the program alone. I don't know if you are like me, but I know that is how it worked for me.
As to the stupidity of putting yourself in situations which will cause anxiety and a panic attack, I can see how you view it. But, I never pushed myself so much that I had panic like that in facing my challenges. I worked with my coach with the skills and through the sessions. I practiced a lot, because I had to--my panic attacks had become a regular thing even at home and even with my safe person and I had negative reactions to the meds I tried. Anyway, I don't think it would be stupid to practice your skills a ton when you are feeling safe. Journaling, breathing, positive self-talk. My coach helped me a lot with the self-talk--I simply didn't know how to talk to myself positively and I had no idea what my thoughts even were. She provided me with a model for the positive self-talk I needed to learn to succeed. After using the negative thoughts notebook, where I wrote negative thoughts out all day for weeks and than changed them to a positive after categorizing them and rethinking where they came from I began to be able to know what I was actually thinking. It seemed miraculous the way I began to change my negative thoughts internally to positive thought after a while. I was actually surprised when my positive dialog began to reduce my panic, I guess I didn't fully believe it would until it began to happen.
Basically what I'm driving at is that with the help of Dana my coach I took the slow, small, steady steps she encouraged me to which built one upon another until the day came I could challenge in a small way my least bothersome fear and allow myself the luxury of bowing out if I couldn't follow through without guilt or shame--just pride for my effort. As I eventually made it through the smallest, least of my fears I began to gain momentum and the ones that had seemed like large, overwhelming fears somehow began to seem smaller than they had and I was able to successfully challenge them. I experienced anxiety, but I managed it one baby step at a time, with a ton of help and support from my coach.
I totally agree with you that to throw yourself to the wolves so to speak would be stupid. But, to very slowly and methodically, with the help of a coach, go through the program and practice in the safest places first all of the skills of breathing, journaling, healthy self-talk, etc. and then challenge, without self-inflicted pressure to force yourself through, the least of your fears and be proud for any effort you make would be smart.
Just so you know, I am very impressed by your candid honesty and I do hope you have given yourself the appropriate pat on the back for reaching out in this frank and honest way! It is one for your journal to be sure--under the heading of I am so proud of my effort and honesty! It will be great to reread someday!!! I totally salute you!!! By the way, when I learned through the program that honesty in our self-talk is actually where we end up when we learn to think positively it was a great relief to me, and as honest as you are I've no doubt it will please you, too!
Best Wishes, Ellen
Edit I had my panic attacks for 23 years, so I get it.
I don't know what I would have ever done without my Stress Center coach Dana. Forget challenging my fears, I couldn't even listen to Session 2 it gave me so much panic. She helped me get through it and now two years later I'm recovered and I have faced many of my fears, not all of them yet, but that's ok I will when the right time presents itself. I no longer fear the fears I have successfully challenged and know the ones to come will work out well in time. I sometimes feel some anxiety, but that's human and I know exactly how to take care of myself with all the practice I've had.
I would strongly recommend you get a coach if you don't have one and try a new one if you have tried one before. I assume you have worked through the CD Sessions and finished the workbook as well. I know that honestly, for me, I needed my coach to work through it with me--I don't think in the condition I was in I could have successfully done the program alone. I don't know if you are like me, but I know that is how it worked for me.
As to the stupidity of putting yourself in situations which will cause anxiety and a panic attack, I can see how you view it. But, I never pushed myself so much that I had panic like that in facing my challenges. I worked with my coach with the skills and through the sessions. I practiced a lot, because I had to--my panic attacks had become a regular thing even at home and even with my safe person and I had negative reactions to the meds I tried. Anyway, I don't think it would be stupid to practice your skills a ton when you are feeling safe. Journaling, breathing, positive self-talk. My coach helped me a lot with the self-talk--I simply didn't know how to talk to myself positively and I had no idea what my thoughts even were. She provided me with a model for the positive self-talk I needed to learn to succeed. After using the negative thoughts notebook, where I wrote negative thoughts out all day for weeks and than changed them to a positive after categorizing them and rethinking where they came from I began to be able to know what I was actually thinking. It seemed miraculous the way I began to change my negative thoughts internally to positive thought after a while. I was actually surprised when my positive dialog began to reduce my panic, I guess I didn't fully believe it would until it began to happen.
Basically what I'm driving at is that with the help of Dana my coach I took the slow, small, steady steps she encouraged me to which built one upon another until the day came I could challenge in a small way my least bothersome fear and allow myself the luxury of bowing out if I couldn't follow through without guilt or shame--just pride for my effort. As I eventually made it through the smallest, least of my fears I began to gain momentum and the ones that had seemed like large, overwhelming fears somehow began to seem smaller than they had and I was able to successfully challenge them. I experienced anxiety, but I managed it one baby step at a time, with a ton of help and support from my coach.
I totally agree with you that to throw yourself to the wolves so to speak would be stupid. But, to very slowly and methodically, with the help of a coach, go through the program and practice in the safest places first all of the skills of breathing, journaling, healthy self-talk, etc. and then challenge, without self-inflicted pressure to force yourself through, the least of your fears and be proud for any effort you make would be smart.
Just so you know, I am very impressed by your candid honesty and I do hope you have given yourself the appropriate pat on the back for reaching out in this frank and honest way! It is one for your journal to be sure--under the heading of I am so proud of my effort and honesty! It will be great to reread someday!!! I totally salute you!!! By the way, when I learned through the program that honesty in our self-talk is actually where we end up when we learn to think positively it was a great relief to me, and as honest as you are I've no doubt it will please you, too!
Best Wishes, Ellen
Edit I had my panic attacks for 23 years, so I get it.
Re: WHEN WILL THEY STOP?!!!
Ellen,
Thanks for the post. I am using the negative thoughts notebook and still have a ton of negative thoughts. It is good to hear the negative to the positive works. I am excited for that.
Thanks for the post. I am using the negative thoughts notebook and still have a ton of negative thoughts. It is good to hear the negative to the positive works. I am excited for that.