Stubborn Anxiety

Sparkus · Post by **Sparkus** » Fri May 23, 2008 4:57 am

I wanted to share a little insight I had today that seems to bring me a sense of peace with my anxiety afflictions.

What struck me was this: I've been having troubles with anxiety since the beginning of this year almost non-stop. I worked the program before and began working it again. I see a therapist and it has helped too. I am going out and doing exposure type therapy to face feared situations and have gained a lot of lost ground back. But still, the anxiety remains and I still feel a prisoner of it. So what gives?

I have felt confounded and frustrated at why my anxiety still lingers even after practicing the 6 steps, doing relaxations techniques, etc. And what hit me was that I still must have some 'sticking points' to my anxiety. Apparently, I have accepted, floated with it and flowed but not quite enough. In other words, I am still at some level resisting my anxiety and not accepting it because I'm still afraid of it and the symptoms I have.

I know, this sounds like a "duh" insight but why else would I still have anxiety unless I was still fueling the problem? I suppose like a broken leg, it takes time for it to heal 100%. When you get to about 95% healing there's still some pain there, but not nearly as bad. Maybe that's the same thing for anxiety?

Anyone have any thoughts to share?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat May 24, 2008 5:09 am

Good insight.

Youre right as long as you fear the fear it will still be there to bother you. Until you stop thinking about it the anxiety will still be there.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat May 24, 2008 6:51 am

I know the program says the cause of the anxiety isn't important and that it's enough to just focus on getting rid of the symptoms... ie the anxiety. That may be true in some, if not most, cases. But in other cases... like me... it's nowhere near enough to just focus on the symptoms while ignoring the underlying problem that caused the disorder in the first place. So if you've done all the CBT work, done it correctly and thoroughly, and you're still experiencing anxiety symptoms that interfere with your life, then all the accepting, breathing, positive thinking and floating in the world will not bring you to full recovery until you also deal with whatever is causing it in the first place.

Some of us DO need to find and deal with the root cause in order to heal.

Something to consider.

derfy · Post by **derfy** » Sat May 24, 2008 6:58 am

I understand your post and I agree. I was curious as to whether or not you have identified any root causes for your anxiety. A great deal of mine comes from being unemployed or underemployed usually. I am currently unemployed but for the six months from Oct - April, the job I had was make me worse every week. See you in chat.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat May 24, 2008 7:14 am

With the help of a good therapist I have been able to identify the root cause of not only my panic attacks but the emetophobia (fear of vomiting) which is what led me to become agoraphobic and OCD... and depressed (geez, I sound like such a head case when I write that all out lol). Without going into detail, my debilitating anxiety is a direct result of severe childhood trauma which started at a very young age and continued for years. So really, I suffer from PTSD - all the other "labels" are symptoms of that.

I have never dealt with what I endured as a child. It's a miracle (literally) that "all" I have is anxiety disorder.

So while I still have to learn and practice all the CBT techniques, I also have to work through, deal with, and put behind me (that doesn't mean forget) what happened to me that brought me here in the first place. That will take time... but it's a relief knowing that this didn't happen to me "out of the blue" for no reason. Believing that it was one of those fluke things that hit me "just because" made me feel very out of control and scared about what else could hit me for no reason. Knowing that there IS a reason I'm like this and that it isn't some random disorder without a cause, makes me feel more in control of being able to overcome it. Before I was able to connect the dots and make sense of it all, I was expected to fix a problem without knowing what that problem was - impossible.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun May 25, 2008 12:08 am

Some of us DO need to find and deal with the root cause in order to heal.

Does the program actually say that understanding the cause of the anxiety is not important? Because I disagree that it is not important. That's not what I heard, but it's been a while since I went over that part of the program. My recollection of what it says is that you may not be able to determine what is causing the anxiety. But, the program itself is designed to help bring you in touch with the thoughts which are the root problem in order to face your fears. You can't face your fears if you don't know what they are.

The program advocates getting in touch with what is really bothering you, facing fears head on. This is part of CBT. The program seeks to help you get in touch with your root problems, especially with the journaling, and the program in general.

The "positive" thinking is actually seeking to see the distortions in the negative thoughts which are causing you problems.

We have to think about what has happened to us, we have to give an event meaning and perception before it impacts us. It is the thoughts caused by events which cause our problems. Getting in touch with those thoughts is part of what CBT and the program are about. Once we get in touch with those thoughts we then have to figure out how we've given those thoughts power they should not have in our lives. That is where the so called "positive" thoughts come in to take away the power of the negative, destructive ones. Many times the "positive" thoughts are not what you would think of as being "positive" but are simply compassionate, loving, comforting, forgiving, empowring thoughts toward ourselves.

With all due respect to you, Emmatophobia, there's a lot more to CBT than what you describe. I've been there and done it. I had serious issues over what happened between my son and myself when he was at home. I was largely at fault for what happened. He suffered greatly as a result, and I mean tremendous emotional suffering. When I found this out it came close to destroying me. I learned to deal with it on my own through the program by facing the ugly truth. I did not simply try and distract myself and think positive thoughts and not address the negative destructive ones. On the contrary, by finding thoughts to replace the self-destructive ones I was able to recover. Perhaps I need to see a psychologist to get past this completely, only time will tell, but if I do it will be CBT that is used to help me. CBT pulled me out of a hole of depression and enabled me to go back to work for a period of time.

I could be wrong, but I think you have a misperception of the program and CBT. Just because we may not be able to come into contact with the thoughts bothering us on our own through journaling does not negate the fact that CBT teaches us to seek to do so in order to recover.

I like your signature by the way. I agree.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun May 25, 2008 12:15 am

it's nowhere near enough to just focus on the symptoms while ignoring the underlying problem that caused the disorder in the first place.

I agree 100%. Part of CBT and the program is journaling the thoughts that are really bothering us and seeking to get in touch with those thoughts, if buried in the subconsicous, through the program and through how and what we think on an ongoing basis, journaling.

Facing what is truly bothering us, divorce, abuse, job loss, failures, etc. is part of the program. The term, "Positive thinking", as Lucinda says is trite compared to what it truly comprises in the program and CBT. It's a lot more than that.

What enables, empowers a person to overcome abuse, failure, job loss, divorce, or whatever? Learning how to view themselves and what happened to them differently, restructuring their thinking. It is changing thinking habits which enables us to get power back over our lives. The only way any event that happens to us can have power over us is through our thinking. We have to give the event meaning and perception before the actual event can impact us negatively. Likewise, if we learn how to view it differently,, think differently, it no longer has to impact us negatively.

Cognitive Behavioral Theapy, CBT, is the theory that our feelings develop from our thinking and that we are sick because of how we think. Through learning how to think about, assign meaning to, and perceive events differently [all of this is so called "positive thinking], we can experience recovery.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun May 25, 2008 1:38 am

I am open to learn more, sassafraz, if there is more.

First off though, I'd like to address something you said.

Don everything I've read of Lucindas and the program basically says if you do her program that's all you need.

This is in direct contradiction to what tape 1 says and what the workbook states in chapter 1. On tape 1, Lucinda states that the program may not be all that you need, that you may need a professional to help you. I just lisened to it 2 days ago. My workbook, on page ix states, "This program is not meant to take the place of professional help for those who feel their situation requires it."

What ever form of therapy a person undergoes, it is their thinking about the root problem which changes and empowers them. Would you agree with that? Or is there some other process?

What I am saying is that sometimes a person may not be skilled enough by himself to know how to change his thinking, so a therapist is used to aid in that process. That is not a failure of CBT theory.

Part of CBT is to develop thoughts which empower a person to overcome the debilitating, negative ones. It does in fact deal with the root problem.

If you care to explain how any other therapy is different in that regard or how another therapy works better in dealing with the root problem, I am all ears. I want to learn. But, I do not agree with your assessment of CBT. As I said, I worked through a very serious emotional problem with CBT. I addressed the root problem of hurting my son.

Here's the jist of it. I faced the root problem that I had hurt him severely emotionally. This caused tremendous guilt, emotional pain, and self hate towards myself. I went for counseling by myself and sought to change my behavior. But, I was stuck in guilt, shame, feelings of worthlessness, failure, etc. The antidote to those thoughts was forgiving myself for the failure, letting go of it, and seeking to love him in the present. I can't go back and change anything. All I can do is forgive myself, recognize I made mistakes, seek to change now, and live in the present. These thoughts over time enabled me to get past this. What else is there to do? This is CBT.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun May 25, 2008 5:53 am

sassafraz,

I think both you and Emma make some valid points. What I am trying to do here is learn, not argue. There have been several occassions when I have experienced the return of what I had worked through in regards to my son. I am aware that the thoughts can come back and attack you again. But, I am not about distraction WITHOUT SEEKING TO DEAL WITH WHAT IS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE SYMPTOMS OF DEPRESSION. So, what else is there than what I expressed in my previous post? There is recognizing what is sometimes "the ugly truth", accepting what has taken place, after that there is grief [anger for those who were not the offenders], after that there is forgiveness and letting go, realizing we can't change our past. Then there is getting involved in the present with meaningful activities, call it distraction if you want. This builds self-esteem and helps us feel good. What else is there? You tell me. I learned all of this as a part of CBT. What else can be done in another therapy?

IN regards to saying the program is all that you need. I will give you some credit on this that it does give that impression at times. However, as you said, there is the disclaimer and tape 1 does say that the program can work well with a therapist and/or meds. My shipment of the program included a list of therapists who use CBT and the program. So, [giving myself some credit here] if the program purported to be the only means to the end......then meds, other therapists [including a list of them with thr program], would not be mentioned. I understand where you are coming from, but it is too inclusive. It's not 100% accurate, in my opinion. Too general a statement.

I am pro the program because of the results I have had with it. I've been on a psychiatric ward twice in my life, seen people having ECT therapy to forget what happened to them, only for the memories to return, and am fairly new to CBT and totally ignorant of any other type of therapy except meds.

I'd love to learn about other therapies from people who have had experince with them to learn and know more. At present I'm hearing what you say, but not understanding because of lack of knowledge and experience of other therapies. I understand there are other methods for trying to deal with different problems, but to me what I see as relevant is that in the end, the Bottom Line, is that our perceptions and thoughts are changed as a result of those therapies which give us our power back. Again, what else is there, if anything?

In other words, no one goes in and operates on your brain and replaces the old thoughts with new ones or takes out the old emotions. As I see it the bottom line is that, with whatever therapy we use, our thoughts and perceptions are changed which changes our emotions. So, is there more to it than that? This is what CBT is all about, the theory that our emotions are formed from our thoughts, not from our experiences themselves [the only one who can cause us to think anything is us, no one controls our thoughts but us.] And therefore, if we learn how to perceive and think differently the emotions change and we recover.

Not trying to be argumentative but to learn. What else is there?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun May 25, 2008 9:01 am

This is a terrific topic! Let me share a bit about the 'problem'. When I read Emmatophobia's initial response, it clicked in my head! How can you get rid of the anxiety, when the root problem is still there?

For me, the root problem is my job! I feel trapped there, yet I'm not confident enough to move elsewhere (almost a double-whammy of anxiety)! As soon as I read her message, I realized that I've got to do a lot more positive self-talk. I've always felt in control of my destiny and I want to continue feeling that way.

Stick with the steps in our program, BUT deal with the core problem if you can identify it (or them)!

IDENTIFY THE CORE ANXIETIES IN YOUR LIFE AND DEAL WITH THEM!

You are all wonderful peers and I wish you much peace in the coming days, weeks, and throughout the year!!!

FGamer