For followers of "less popular" spiritual path's

GuitarTom · Post by **GuitarTom** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:57 am

Hi Missouri gal,

I also found the program to be very helpful. I actually wasn't a practicing Buddhist at the time that I bought the program. I had read books about Buddhism before but mostly just as an intellectual endeavor. The program helped me to recognize unrealistic negative thoughts. Shortly after I started to gain control I learned to meditate.

Practicing Buddhism and this program have both been instrumental in my emotional well being. For me they compliment each other quite nicely.

Can you recommend any good reading on Zen for me. Most of my reading has been kind of an Americanized-Tibetan form. I would like to know more about Zen and the differences to Tibetan Buddhism.

Tom

pete1000 · Post by **pete1000** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:24 pm

A favorite quote of mine is:: religion is for people afraid of going to hell, spirituality is for people who have already been there" I also had read Don Miguel Ruiz' "The Four agreements" and heartily recommend it for anyone looking for an openminded spiritual journey. Thanx for opening the discussion of spirituality non specific to Christian belief, I think the fear of Hell, taught by many religions is my gratest anxiety and often difficult to challenge. I'm glad there are others here with similar ideals even if our beliefs may not be identical. I have no problem with someone being christian, if that is what is in your heart, but I also don;t believe that all Buddhists, Jews, Taoists... go to hell for it.

ezgoj · Post by **ezgoj** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:12 am

This is my first time posting so bear with me and I apologize if this is not what this thread is about..its just the only thread I thought could help me. This has been a very rough and anxiety ridden subject for me and is really been the catalyst for my anxiety and depression. I was raised Catholic and then became Luthern...mostly family influenced. Most of my family are Christian, or call themselves Christian...I don't know that they lead a truly authentic Christian life but they don't seem to struggle with it as much as i do. I'm not here to promote or be against Christianity...I'm here searching like everyone else for peace of mind. I feel very stuck and have been for 2 yrs with the idea of hell and damnation due to my coming to terms with my past and my limited belief system. After going into my downward spiral I searched out God to help me with my crisis. The God that i went back to seemed to send me spiraling downward more with fear of judgement and guilt when I read both the law and the Gospel. It's hard for me to accept a religion that is fear based. This kinda fear keeps me stuck. I don't know how many times I have asked myself these questions. Am I truly saved? Did I truly take Jesus into my heart? Or did I just say it because I fear Hell or that i won't be given the holy spirit? How can a loving peaceful God do the things that was said in the Old Testament? How can God send anyone that he created to an eternity of misery? Then I feel convicted when I question the bible or Christianity...or when I search outside for non-Christian spirituality or self-improvement.
I want a walk with God so bad but yet I fear the
very thing I should love and have peace with. I want to believe that God is giving, loving, forgiving, peaceful, and guiding light that keeps us striving to be a better person. Not a judgemental tyrant that hands out heaven to some and hell to others. Why isn't ok to believe that God gave all his children a loving spirit? How they practice that spirit and celebrate it shouldn't send them to hell. Isn't it in essence our one and only creator we are listening to, celebrating, and honoring when we thank, praise, worship, pray, meditate, fast...whatever religions do with him or it or energy? I have to say I find more peace in less popular spirituality these days than my Christian roots.

Feed back please.

Jason

pete1000 · Post by **pete1000** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:05 pm

Jason, I read your post, and know exactly what you are talking about. How does one love a God that they are terrified of? I have struggled with this for a long time too and know of many others who do as well. Nobody really knows for sure if Hell does exist, though many say it indeed does. The trouble for me and you and many others is that this was taught to us when we were very young and as children had no other choice but to believe it. Now as we are older and seeking a sence of spirituality that makes sence in our heart, the things we were taught hen younger do not want to go away. I have read some spiritual books such as "The Four agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz" which is a Toltec meditation book with some great ideas on this. You do have a right to seek out a God of your understanding, or "Higher power" if you will. You are not a bad person for questioning things which do not make sense to you, on the contrary, the fact that you are concerned, is a testament to the kind of person you are. It is difficult, but know that there are others here, especially in this thread who do not fully understand Christianity and its practicies and are looking for something which will bring comfort to us and help to ease our anxiety.

Mello Nello · Post by **Mello Nello** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:04 am

When The word mentions "Fear God" its not talking about being scared of God. It means Reverence Him! God said he didnt give us a spirit of FEAR but a strong mind, and loving spirit.
I personally beleive that each of us who Beleive have a "personal" relationship with God.
All through the his Word, one of the most often words spoken are "Relationship" with HIM.
God said, he is the Father of the Fatherless, the Husband of the Husbandless. Does they bring FEAR to you? It brings peace to me, and strengthens my faith in HIM.
No Christian is perfect! But, we are being molded with his guidance in our lives. Do we always get it right? No, we dont, I dont!
There is a huge difference between religiousity and Personal Relationship!
Jason, do some Bible study on your own, Get to know Personally who God is!

pete1000 · Post by **pete1000** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:35 pm

Jason, you may follow whatever spiritual path is comfortable to you, if something is producing more anxiety in you, then try something new. That, I believe was the intent of this string, if the Bible comforts you, read it, if it does not, then there are many other wonderful books and pathways to a relationship with God of your understanding and the choice is Yours.

Missouri gal · Post by **Missouri gal** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:52 am

Tom -
You asked if I can recommend any good reading on Zen. A great book is "Buddhism Plain and Simple," by Steve Hagen. He was my teacher for 10 years in Minneapolis. The book has helped a lot of people; it's a basic introduction.

Zen Buddhism is more stripped-down than Tibentan Buddhism. Tibetan Buddhism has various mental tools for dealing with emotions and such -- slogans to use, and so forth -- while Zen is clean and simple. It's about just sitting. Both paths are useful and valid.

With Buddhism, it's important to seek out a teacher. Much can be learned from books, but there is a direct person-to-person transmission that is so much more powerful. I learned so much from my teacher's presence, how he is in the world.

Other books to look for include works by Charlotte Joko Beck, a Zen teacher in San Diego who is retired now and quite good. The founder of Zen was Dogen; reading him is like drinking clear water.

Missouri Gal

J1 · Post by J1 » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:59 pm

Thank you all for this valuable thread. I studied meditation with a Korean Zen master about 25 years ago and sadly dropped out of the practice -- a major element of my anxiety-based "been-there, done that" mentality. Back then I could go home and meditate for an hour and find that all our cats were gathered around me, one in my lap, all completely at peace. That's not so hard for a cat, but it was so fine for me that I carelessly abandoned the practice, wrongly assuming I didn't need to keep it up.

I am now trying to reclaim my rightful center along with this program. The greatest insight I learned from Zen meditation was that stillness is not to be feared -- stillness is the peace at the center of the world, and it welcomes you without judgment. It is our essence. Our jingle-jangle world encourages us to equate silence with death, but the benign equilibrium of the world is ours to claim.

I suppose this can be considered a spiritual statement, but for me it's just a reflection of the natural world I see around me. Most organisms are at peace with their place in the biome -- why not us?

pete1000 · Post by **pete1000** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:19 pm

the longest journey you can make in life is only about 18 inches, it is the distance between you head (fear) and your heart (love).

BeatAnxiety07 · Post by **BeatAnxiety07** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:58 pm

Tom,

In response to your post about the book "Turning Your Mind Into An Ally":

Originally posted by GuitarTom:
The first paragraph is from the chapter titled "Taking Our Seat". He is explaining the state of mind we are trying to achieve when meditating.
We need precision to apply the technique and bring our minds back to the breath. It's said that great meditators become so centered that they can feel their blood flow. They can actually sense the atomic level of their cellular structure. We need gentleness to keep the process neutral and light-handed. We don't need to analyze or judge a thought when it arises, or judge ourselves for having it. The contents of the thought, whether it's about the football game or our deepest, darkest secret, are neither good nor bad. A thought is just a thought. Chastising ourselves for thinking is also just a thought. So the instruction is to see the thought as a distraction and come back to the breath. This kind of gentleness makes for a healthy meditation practice.

The one part of this that really stood out for me is: "Chastising ourselves for thinking is also just a thought." This illustrates the fact that all we are is our thoughts, our brains are us. Our consciousness is merely our perceptions and the thoughts that accompany those perceptions. I've said this before: "You are not in control of your thoughts, and a response to a thought is also originated from a thought. As the author says: So the instruction is to see the thought as a distraction and come back to the breathe. So basically, quit anaylizing your thoughts and simply be... Going back to the breath is just a way at attempting to prevent the mind from focusing on other thoughts-- although, turning your focus onto your breath did require a thought... This is what makes mediation so hard.. its attempting to not think and simply be.

Originally posted by GuitarTom:
This second paragraph is from the chapter titled "How To Gather A Scattered Mind"
So we simply recognize those thoughts, and then we recognize them again. We're noticing the movement of our mind. Once we've recognized them, we begin to acknowledge them in passing: "Oh! A thought!" The point is to be quick and neutral. If we look at the thought slowly, deliberately, or judgmentally, we'll only add more thoughts to the process. That won't help. A thought has occurred, it is neither good nor bad. Recognizing and acknowledging brings us back to where we are, sitting on a cushion and trying to place our mind on the breath. We're learning how to cut though the discursiveness.

Again trying to simply be....

Originally posted by GuitarTom:
I thought these two paragraphs, though they are an extremely small taste of what Buddhism is about, would help to illustrate how I think it relates to helping people cope with anxiety, or any other negative state of mind.

With out a doubt.. This is, in my opinion, the fundamental basis of eastern thought. My interpretation is: We are simply attempting to not think and simply exist.

Originally posted by GuitarTom:
Many people think that Buddhism is a religion where one worships Buddha. It's not that at all. It's just a path, a way to achieve a more healthy and balanced state of mind. I'm not trying to push Buddhism on anyone. I recognize the fact that it is not the only path, but it would be nice if I could increase someone's understanding, and maybe introduce it to somebody that it will help as much as it has helped me.

Tom

I think the reason a lot of people feel that Buddhism is about worshiping Buddha is a result of their own beliefs (bias) interfering with their learning process. The basis of western religions is creation, a deity, and worship of that deity. When one hears religion they immediately think God, Worship, Heaven, Hell, etc..