An Agnostic's Thought
I am an agnostic: I neither reject the belief for nor do I accept the belief for a higher power of any kind. The only faith I have in is for the hidden potential in mankind to do good: I have seen many good people help those in need. However, I am not good at having faith in something not readily seen or detected with any of the other four senses. I have become a vegetarian since my anxiety and depression began, for conceit extends not toward just fellow humans, but most (if not all) organisms as well. Why think of ourselves as higher than anyone else, let alone any plants or animals? I am also very liberal: I love diversity in thought and religion, as long as what a person believes doesn't turn into action that hurts or defames another person in ANY way. I believe that homosexuality is not a choice, but a genetic action: why fight against the person's right to follow their genes? So, to cut things short: how can I stop my obsessional thoughts of death and hyperalertness of the passing moments without having a strong faith? I'd rather not commit to a religion, for there are always followers in a religion responsible for mass crimes against humanity, past and present. No religion or ethnic group is completely free of bloodshed in any way. Also, if there is a God, there would be no gender, shape, or form of "Him" that we could possibly know. So, how can I have faith that my obsessional thoughts of death will go away if I'm a liberal non-adherant? Any advice would be appreciated!
I am an obsessional thinker and a perfectionist: the main causes of my anxiety and depression. I am 18 years old, already been through the program once and plan on going through it again. I hope to feel better soon!
-Ben G. (Gaarden)
-Ben G. (Gaarden)
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Guest
Your question, will probably lead to responses that facilitate a continued focus on your symptom...but I�d encourage you to stay focused on the cause. Before I explain that...I thought you might find this thought worth considering. Defined...faith is a � belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of someone or something� Perhaps, a healthy starting place for you and each of us...is to work toward achieving faith in ourself?
For many of us...we�ve gone a long time thinking we are alone and doing our best to cope and get by...one very important obstacle being that...without access to the kind of information that is in the program you are doing...we tend to focus on the symptoms and try to solve our troubles by trying to unlock the puzzle of our symptoms. And this approach...especially when linked to the negative perspective that we all bring to the party...just ties the knots we�re all struggling with even tighter.
As I see your question...you are perhaps focusing on the symptom...an obsessive thought. The cause is the anxiety...and you will find help for the cause within the program. Choose any topic and you�ll find plenty who obsess about it...obsessing about death and faith...is the same to another as obsessing about car safety or pimples. Each of our own obsessions cause us great concern and lead to further symptoms that have a negative impact on our ability to experience internal peace. If for the time being...you have hope...use that to carry you through the program. In the process, you�ll learn more about negative thinking, scary what-ifs, and perfectionism, black and white thinking, living in the present vs. living in the past with guilt or the future with worry. You will learn about assertiveness and self-confidence...and the process of absorbing all of these skills will draw you away from focusing on the symptoms...and draw you closer to addressing the causes.
You are currently working a very powerful part of the program...positive self-talk. Stay focused on this lesson and it will prepare you for the next lesson and each one after that. As you gain insight, skills and knowledge with each successive lesson, you�ll be better able to make the most out of lesson 10...that directly addresses obsessive scary thoughts. Once you begin to establish some internal peace by replacing negative thinking habits with positive ones...you may find that the agnostic approach is for you...just not the obsessing about it...or you may come to view a particular organized religion differently, by achieving a more healthy and positive perspective of the world around you in general. You may even unexpectedly find, many former perspectives and understandings of the world around you changing...or simply that you feel more confidant and more at peace with your current views. Negative thinking not only limits our ability to learn and experience new approaches...it also taints and limits our ability to appreciate our old approaches and our current ones.
Either way you decide to lean...consider the cause and not the symptom and don�t overlook the importance and power of finding faith in yourself and in your worth. I�m willing to bet that when each of us on this forum finds our way closer to that...we�ll be much ahead of the game. Use that positive self talk and tell yourself that you are okay...and that it's okay to have questions...and my best to you.
JOP
PS. What a great use of the signature feature! Sharing what lesson you are on and an idea of a specific contributor to your anxiousness...fantastic Gaarden. I�ve not seen anyone else do this. It was so helpful as a reader...to know what skills you�ve been exposed to and which you are yet to learn...just wanted to congratulate you on what I personally thought...was a wonderful idea.
For many of us...we�ve gone a long time thinking we are alone and doing our best to cope and get by...one very important obstacle being that...without access to the kind of information that is in the program you are doing...we tend to focus on the symptoms and try to solve our troubles by trying to unlock the puzzle of our symptoms. And this approach...especially when linked to the negative perspective that we all bring to the party...just ties the knots we�re all struggling with even tighter.
As I see your question...you are perhaps focusing on the symptom...an obsessive thought. The cause is the anxiety...and you will find help for the cause within the program. Choose any topic and you�ll find plenty who obsess about it...obsessing about death and faith...is the same to another as obsessing about car safety or pimples. Each of our own obsessions cause us great concern and lead to further symptoms that have a negative impact on our ability to experience internal peace. If for the time being...you have hope...use that to carry you through the program. In the process, you�ll learn more about negative thinking, scary what-ifs, and perfectionism, black and white thinking, living in the present vs. living in the past with guilt or the future with worry. You will learn about assertiveness and self-confidence...and the process of absorbing all of these skills will draw you away from focusing on the symptoms...and draw you closer to addressing the causes.
You are currently working a very powerful part of the program...positive self-talk. Stay focused on this lesson and it will prepare you for the next lesson and each one after that. As you gain insight, skills and knowledge with each successive lesson, you�ll be better able to make the most out of lesson 10...that directly addresses obsessive scary thoughts. Once you begin to establish some internal peace by replacing negative thinking habits with positive ones...you may find that the agnostic approach is for you...just not the obsessing about it...or you may come to view a particular organized religion differently, by achieving a more healthy and positive perspective of the world around you in general. You may even unexpectedly find, many former perspectives and understandings of the world around you changing...or simply that you feel more confidant and more at peace with your current views. Negative thinking not only limits our ability to learn and experience new approaches...it also taints and limits our ability to appreciate our old approaches and our current ones.
Either way you decide to lean...consider the cause and not the symptom and don�t overlook the importance and power of finding faith in yourself and in your worth. I�m willing to bet that when each of us on this forum finds our way closer to that...we�ll be much ahead of the game. Use that positive self talk and tell yourself that you are okay...and that it's okay to have questions...and my best to you.
JOP
PS. What a great use of the signature feature! Sharing what lesson you are on and an idea of a specific contributor to your anxiousness...fantastic Gaarden. I�ve not seen anyone else do this. It was so helpful as a reader...to know what skills you�ve been exposed to and which you are yet to learn...just wanted to congratulate you on what I personally thought...was a wonderful idea.
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Guest
Ben, I just wanted you to know that you are not alone. I am an agnostic, too. I try to focus on the belief I have that there is so much good in the world (at least as much good as evil).
It certainly adds another level of challenge to approach anxiety in this way. I've often thought that recovering from anxiety should be easier for people who do believe in a higher power because they have someone they believe can take on their burdens. However, I know it's not easier because so many people on this forum who are religious struggle with the same anxieties.
I like Justin's idea of having faith in yourself and seeing where that leads you. Keep on working!
Julie
It certainly adds another level of challenge to approach anxiety in this way. I've often thought that recovering from anxiety should be easier for people who do believe in a higher power because they have someone they believe can take on their burdens. However, I know it's not easier because so many people on this forum who are religious struggle with the same anxieties.
I like Justin's idea of having faith in yourself and seeing where that leads you. Keep on working!
Julie
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Guest
Thanks a lot! It makes sense now: the anxiety is causing my obsessions, and the obsessions are but a small part of the anxiety. I just have to have faith in myself, that I myself have the power to do what I want to do, and to be good to myself. I'll just have to keep using my workbook, flashcards, and thought journal to come up with possitive thoughts to replace the negative!
P.S: Thank you Justin for that praise about my signature! I figured that if I am to help anyone in my condition, or to get help, I should let people know where I am in the program.
P.S: Thank you Justin for that praise about my signature! I figured that if I am to help anyone in my condition, or to get help, I should let people know where I am in the program.
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Guest
I know I shouldn't bump up an old thread, but I just wanted to update what I currently feel. I am now much farther in the program than I was, and at the same time I have gained new insights. I see that many people on this forum are Christian, and that is good. I am still very young, and have yet to have many of the experiences you all have. However, the more I delve into Christianity, the more I get confused: confused about the prerequisites to salvation, confused that mere thoughts would prevent one from going to heaven, and confused that an all-loving God would send people to hell for eternal torture. I have read countless articles (and even Biblical passages) about salvation, and it all seems very confusing. With thousands of different denominations in Christianity, who is more right than the other? Who determines who is right and who is wrong? Does absolute knowledge and absolute morality even exist? Why is the divorce rate among conservative Christians higher than that of athiests? Why can't science and religion comingle in ideas, rather than shoot each other down? Why do wars based on religion happen if the Golden Rule exists in almost all religions? Why is it that negative news is portrayed much more often than positive news? These are but a few of my doubts and questions, many of which prevent me from joining an organized religion at this time. Since many of you are Christians, I'd appreciate it if you help me to answer some of my questions. If the questions are unanswerable, then at least I have your viewpoints in consideration, which make all the difference. Thanks for the help!
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Guest
Gaarden,
I have struggled with those questions myself. Often I read your posts and feel like we share a lot of the same thoughts. You speak very intelligently Gaarden and I can tell you are very well read...it seems you are beyond your years. As a woman who grew up Catholic I understand why you are confused. I never understood why a God of love would permit us to self-destruct on earth and basically earn our way into hell. I can't grasp why a God who loved us would leave us here with no solid answers but maybe I just haven't discovered those answers or maybe I have the answers but because my reasoning mind does not agree I have chosen to dismiss those answers. I have found the most content and peaceful people (or at least seems to be) are those who have not conformed to a manmade religion but rather they have formed their own spiritual union with thier Higher Power through meditation. These people feel connected and at peace with themselves, the world and life and death. I think we can take a lot of wisdom from every religion. There seems to be a common theme which is LOVE. Love and respect life, each other and yourself. I don't have the answers to your questions but I believe that you need to become silent and still and stop the mind from all it's chatter. In this quiet space you will find peace, comfort and love...this is the Creating Force and you can find your answers there. I find it hard to accept that the Bible or any other religious doctrine hold the only answers. Why were people 2000 years ago privy to such information through direct experience and we are not? Why are we left with writings that we are just supposed to take at face value? It seems it would be foolish to not question these things...it just doesn't make sense to me. Because I am human and I have the capacity to question these things I refuse to believe God would punish me for this. I am a good person and have searched in vain for years for answers. Just as it seems you have been. It's not for lack of you wanting to experience a Higher Power or know the Truth...it's just that we aren't understanding how to experience Truth. Those that say they have experienced Truth/God/Higher Power say it was through becoming silent. Unfortunately, I have not set aside time daily to practice silence due to the race of day to day life....I can tell you when I have I've had some spectacular happenings. On a few occassions, I have literally felt a peaceful white light rush through my body and uliminate my mind. It was really an unexplainable experience. I personally feel meditation is a way to know our Creator-- if only I could work it into my daily life on a consistent basis. I hope you find the peace and answers you are looking for....in the meantime trust that the answers will be revealed to you...pray that you discover the meaning of our existence and ask for Truth to be revealed to you. Best wishes....
I have struggled with those questions myself. Often I read your posts and feel like we share a lot of the same thoughts. You speak very intelligently Gaarden and I can tell you are very well read...it seems you are beyond your years. As a woman who grew up Catholic I understand why you are confused. I never understood why a God of love would permit us to self-destruct on earth and basically earn our way into hell. I can't grasp why a God who loved us would leave us here with no solid answers but maybe I just haven't discovered those answers or maybe I have the answers but because my reasoning mind does not agree I have chosen to dismiss those answers. I have found the most content and peaceful people (or at least seems to be) are those who have not conformed to a manmade religion but rather they have formed their own spiritual union with thier Higher Power through meditation. These people feel connected and at peace with themselves, the world and life and death. I think we can take a lot of wisdom from every religion. There seems to be a common theme which is LOVE. Love and respect life, each other and yourself. I don't have the answers to your questions but I believe that you need to become silent and still and stop the mind from all it's chatter. In this quiet space you will find peace, comfort and love...this is the Creating Force and you can find your answers there. I find it hard to accept that the Bible or any other religious doctrine hold the only answers. Why were people 2000 years ago privy to such information through direct experience and we are not? Why are we left with writings that we are just supposed to take at face value? It seems it would be foolish to not question these things...it just doesn't make sense to me. Because I am human and I have the capacity to question these things I refuse to believe God would punish me for this. I am a good person and have searched in vain for years for answers. Just as it seems you have been. It's not for lack of you wanting to experience a Higher Power or know the Truth...it's just that we aren't understanding how to experience Truth. Those that say they have experienced Truth/God/Higher Power say it was through becoming silent. Unfortunately, I have not set aside time daily to practice silence due to the race of day to day life....I can tell you when I have I've had some spectacular happenings. On a few occassions, I have literally felt a peaceful white light rush through my body and uliminate my mind. It was really an unexplainable experience. I personally feel meditation is a way to know our Creator-- if only I could work it into my daily life on a consistent basis. I hope you find the peace and answers you are looking for....in the meantime trust that the answers will be revealed to you...pray that you discover the meaning of our existence and ask for Truth to be revealed to you. Best wishes....
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Guest
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaarden:
I know I shouldn't bump up an old thread, but I just wanted to update what I currently feel. I am now much farther in the program than I was, and at the same time I have gained new insights.
Glad you are working on the program.
I see that many people on this forum are Christian, and that is good. I am still very young, and have yet to have many of the experiences you all have. However, the more I delve into Christianity, the more I get confused:
If your questioning is productive and not causing you anxiety, that's fine. But if you begin to be so confused and anxious about the "questioning" going on in your head, I would suggest setting it aside and finding something more here-and-now and simple to focus on. Would you drill a friend about these questions until they were so lost and confused that it caused them anxiety? The program is about treating yourself like a good friend. Know when to move on to something else.
confused about the prerequisites to salvation,
The prerequisite is a desire to have salvation
confused that mere thoughts would prevent one from going to heaven, and confused that an all-loving God would send people to hell for eternal torture. I have read countless articles (and even Biblical passages) about salvation, and it all seems very confusing.
I have described panic, anxiety, and depression as hell. The way to end this type of torture is to change the thinking or transform the mind. The fearful thoughts block the loving feeling you could be experiencing (heaven?). This is how mere thoughts can prevent one from going to heaven.
With thousands of different denominations in Christianity, who is more right than the other?
The ones who are most Christ-like
Who determines who is right and who is wrong?
Our goal is not to be more judgemental but more loving.
Does absolute knowledge and absolute morality even exist?
Not for us
Why is the divorce rate among conservative Christians higher than that of athiests? Why can't science and religion comingle in ideas, rather than shoot each other down? Why do wars based on religion happen if the Golden Rule exists in almost all religions? Why is it that negative news is portrayed much more often than positive news? These are but a few of my doubts and questions, many of which prevent me from joining an organized religion at this time. Since many of you are Christians, I'd appreciate it if you help me to answer some of my questions. If the questions are unanswerable, then at least I have your viewpoints in consideration, which make all the difference. Thanks for the help!
The closer you get to the fire, the hotter it gets. Anyone trying to follow the "Golden Rule" will feel the heat and meet with oposition. At that point, you have the option to continue or turn back. Sadly, many "believers" turn back because they question whether their salvation can really be found in this consuming fire. Many who go through this program feel the heat of battle with negative thoughts and turn back. If they would only trust that their fearful thoughts are powerless and can be cooled and soothed with compassionate dialog there would be many more feeling the victory.
Thanks for checking back in. Our thoughts and feelings change. It's good to stay in touch.
Tammy
I know I shouldn't bump up an old thread, but I just wanted to update what I currently feel. I am now much farther in the program than I was, and at the same time I have gained new insights.
Glad you are working on the program.
I see that many people on this forum are Christian, and that is good. I am still very young, and have yet to have many of the experiences you all have. However, the more I delve into Christianity, the more I get confused:
If your questioning is productive and not causing you anxiety, that's fine. But if you begin to be so confused and anxious about the "questioning" going on in your head, I would suggest setting it aside and finding something more here-and-now and simple to focus on. Would you drill a friend about these questions until they were so lost and confused that it caused them anxiety? The program is about treating yourself like a good friend. Know when to move on to something else.
confused about the prerequisites to salvation,
The prerequisite is a desire to have salvation
confused that mere thoughts would prevent one from going to heaven, and confused that an all-loving God would send people to hell for eternal torture. I have read countless articles (and even Biblical passages) about salvation, and it all seems very confusing.
I have described panic, anxiety, and depression as hell. The way to end this type of torture is to change the thinking or transform the mind. The fearful thoughts block the loving feeling you could be experiencing (heaven?). This is how mere thoughts can prevent one from going to heaven.
With thousands of different denominations in Christianity, who is more right than the other?
The ones who are most Christ-like
Who determines who is right and who is wrong?
Our goal is not to be more judgemental but more loving.
Does absolute knowledge and absolute morality even exist?
Not for us
Why is the divorce rate among conservative Christians higher than that of athiests? Why can't science and religion comingle in ideas, rather than shoot each other down? Why do wars based on religion happen if the Golden Rule exists in almost all religions? Why is it that negative news is portrayed much more often than positive news? These are but a few of my doubts and questions, many of which prevent me from joining an organized religion at this time. Since many of you are Christians, I'd appreciate it if you help me to answer some of my questions. If the questions are unanswerable, then at least I have your viewpoints in consideration, which make all the difference. Thanks for the help!
The closer you get to the fire, the hotter it gets. Anyone trying to follow the "Golden Rule" will feel the heat and meet with oposition. At that point, you have the option to continue or turn back. Sadly, many "believers" turn back because they question whether their salvation can really be found in this consuming fire. Many who go through this program feel the heat of battle with negative thoughts and turn back. If they would only trust that their fearful thoughts are powerless and can be cooled and soothed with compassionate dialog there would be many more feeling the victory.
Thanks for checking back in. Our thoughts and feelings change. It's good to stay in touch.
Tammy
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Guest
Thanks for the help! I wasn't actually relating my state of anxiety/depression to that of heaven/hell, I was just relating what I said to what I was reading. When I said "prerequisites," I meant "requirements," and you must admit that many Biblical passages conflict with each other on the subject, especially in the Gospels. Also, it's very interesting what you said about "the ones that are most Christ-like," considering that the Gospels (especially that of John) also show conflicts with each other about how he lived. I have stated that hell is not a place, but a state of mind, and that heaven and hell probably don't exist, for if there were an afterlife, it would be merely that: an afterlife, indescribable by anyone. I like to take the stand of the Unitarian Universalists when it comes to salvation: since we are all humans equally enmeshed in this world, and since we exist underneath an all-loving deity (whether it be God, Jehovah, etc.), all people, regardless of beliefs or actions, will EVENTUALLY be saved. Therefore, yes, I shouldn't worry about "salvation" if it doesn't even exist! But this made me think of another question (one that I will wait on answering for now): with so many descriptions of what Christ looked like and how Christ lived, and when and where he was even born, how can one determine if another is living "Christ-like?" Again, thank you so much for your insights! 
P.S: Some passages in the Bible describe Jesus in a similar manner to that of Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha) in that he gave away EVERYTHING he owned to the needy EXCEPT for the one pair of clothes on his back. Since most people (if not all people) are materialistic in SOME way, is it even RIGHT to propose that one lives "Christ-like" if they OWN something (except for the one pair of clothes on their back)? Or how about dying as a martyr in the name of God for ALL people to be saved? There aren't very many people in history (or the present) who would be willing to do that (both Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. were prepared to die for their beliefs, by the way). Interesting, very interesting indeed...
P.S: Some passages in the Bible describe Jesus in a similar manner to that of Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha) in that he gave away EVERYTHING he owned to the needy EXCEPT for the one pair of clothes on his back. Since most people (if not all people) are materialistic in SOME way, is it even RIGHT to propose that one lives "Christ-like" if they OWN something (except for the one pair of clothes on their back)? Or how about dying as a martyr in the name of God for ALL people to be saved? There aren't very many people in history (or the present) who would be willing to do that (both Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. were prepared to die for their beliefs, by the way). Interesting, very interesting indeed...
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Guest
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaarden:
Thanks for the help! I wasn't actually relating my state of anxiety/depression to that of heaven/hell, I was just relating what I said to what I was reading. When I said "prerequisites," I meant "requirements," and you must admit that many Biblical passages conflict with each other on the subject, especially in the Gospels.
There are several paradoxes in the Biblical passages which are different than saying they "conflict" with each other. Like in the StressCenter.com program, participants get confused about how being compassionate to themselves can produce the results they desire. How can I get myself to drive if I compassionately tell myself I do not have to drive? It is a paradoxical effect that when you take the pressure off yourself to do something, it lessens the anxiety and makes the task easier to do. Our instinct is to insult, criticize, and force ourselves into the task. It takes a lot of trust and courage to try a new unfamiliar way.
Also, it's very interesting what you said about "the ones that are most Christ-like," considering that the Gospels (especially that of John) also show conflicts with each other about how he lived.
Yes. I understand what you're saying. It does look like conflict. The writers of the Gospels admit they are striving for the goal of Christ-like and falling short. They give their unique perspectives. No two perspectives are the same. Conflict or differences in perspective is healthy and natural. It is not always a sign that someone is not telling the truth. Many a marriage has disolved over not respecting or dare I say "enjoying" the other's perspective. It's pretty cool in the beginning, but after a while, the different perspeective is just irritating. I suspect it becomes irritating when it threatens our own perspective or forces us to work too hard to understand others. It is quite the task to look for the truth. Many just give up looking. Guess I know how that feels too.
I have stated that hell is not a place, but a state of mind, and that heaven and hell probably don't exist, for if there were an afterlife, it would be merely that: an afterlife, indescribable by anyone. I like to take the stand of the Unitarian Universalists when it comes to salvation: since we are all humans equally enmeshed in this world, and since we exist underneath an all-loving deity (whether it be God, Jehovah, etc.), all people, regardless of beliefs or actions, will EVENTUALLY be saved.
That is like saying that someone with a bleeding wound will EVENTUALLY stop bleeding. We need to take action.
Therefore, yes, I shouldn't worry about "salvation" if it doesn't even exist! But this made me think of another question (one that I will wait on answering for now): with so many descriptions of what Christ looked like and how Christ lived, and when and where he was even born, how can one determine if another is living "Christ-like?" Again, thank you so much for your insights!
One cannot really determine if another is living "Christ-like" by looking at them, just like you cannot really tell how much anxiety a person has by looking at them. They would need to honestly disclose that information. We can only try to be honest with ourselves about our own heart. If you look in the mirrow and have compassion on the person you see, you will get a glimpse of salvation.
P.S: Some passages in the Bible describe Jesus in a similar manner to that of Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha) in that he gave away EVERYTHING he owned to the needy EXCEPT for the one pair of clothes on his back. Since most people (if not all people) are materialistic in SOME way, is it even RIGHT to propose that one lives "Christ-like" if they OWN something (except for the one pair of clothes on their back)?
It's not about the clothes. We are who we are no matter how much or how little we wear. Some have to make a million dollars to find out who they are, and some have to give it all away. Neither is right or wrong to understand yourself better. If you have great wealth and great love, super. But if material posessions are not needed for joy, it may be less burden to have them. What ever helps you keep your focus on your most prized posession.... peace within.
Or how about dying as a martyr in the name of God for ALL people to be saved? There aren't very many people in history (or the present) who would be willing to do that (both Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. were prepared to die for their beliefs, by the way). Interesting, very interesting indeed...QUOTE]
Yes! It is all very interesting indeed! Thanks for a lively discussion.
Tammy
Thanks for the help! I wasn't actually relating my state of anxiety/depression to that of heaven/hell, I was just relating what I said to what I was reading. When I said "prerequisites," I meant "requirements," and you must admit that many Biblical passages conflict with each other on the subject, especially in the Gospels.
There are several paradoxes in the Biblical passages which are different than saying they "conflict" with each other. Like in the StressCenter.com program, participants get confused about how being compassionate to themselves can produce the results they desire. How can I get myself to drive if I compassionately tell myself I do not have to drive? It is a paradoxical effect that when you take the pressure off yourself to do something, it lessens the anxiety and makes the task easier to do. Our instinct is to insult, criticize, and force ourselves into the task. It takes a lot of trust and courage to try a new unfamiliar way.
Also, it's very interesting what you said about "the ones that are most Christ-like," considering that the Gospels (especially that of John) also show conflicts with each other about how he lived.
Yes. I understand what you're saying. It does look like conflict. The writers of the Gospels admit they are striving for the goal of Christ-like and falling short. They give their unique perspectives. No two perspectives are the same. Conflict or differences in perspective is healthy and natural. It is not always a sign that someone is not telling the truth. Many a marriage has disolved over not respecting or dare I say "enjoying" the other's perspective. It's pretty cool in the beginning, but after a while, the different perspeective is just irritating. I suspect it becomes irritating when it threatens our own perspective or forces us to work too hard to understand others. It is quite the task to look for the truth. Many just give up looking. Guess I know how that feels too.
I have stated that hell is not a place, but a state of mind, and that heaven and hell probably don't exist, for if there were an afterlife, it would be merely that: an afterlife, indescribable by anyone. I like to take the stand of the Unitarian Universalists when it comes to salvation: since we are all humans equally enmeshed in this world, and since we exist underneath an all-loving deity (whether it be God, Jehovah, etc.), all people, regardless of beliefs or actions, will EVENTUALLY be saved.
That is like saying that someone with a bleeding wound will EVENTUALLY stop bleeding. We need to take action.
Therefore, yes, I shouldn't worry about "salvation" if it doesn't even exist! But this made me think of another question (one that I will wait on answering for now): with so many descriptions of what Christ looked like and how Christ lived, and when and where he was even born, how can one determine if another is living "Christ-like?" Again, thank you so much for your insights!
One cannot really determine if another is living "Christ-like" by looking at them, just like you cannot really tell how much anxiety a person has by looking at them. They would need to honestly disclose that information. We can only try to be honest with ourselves about our own heart. If you look in the mirrow and have compassion on the person you see, you will get a glimpse of salvation.
P.S: Some passages in the Bible describe Jesus in a similar manner to that of Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha) in that he gave away EVERYTHING he owned to the needy EXCEPT for the one pair of clothes on his back. Since most people (if not all people) are materialistic in SOME way, is it even RIGHT to propose that one lives "Christ-like" if they OWN something (except for the one pair of clothes on their back)?
It's not about the clothes. We are who we are no matter how much or how little we wear. Some have to make a million dollars to find out who they are, and some have to give it all away. Neither is right or wrong to understand yourself better. If you have great wealth and great love, super. But if material posessions are not needed for joy, it may be less burden to have them. What ever helps you keep your focus on your most prized posession.... peace within.
Or how about dying as a martyr in the name of God for ALL people to be saved? There aren't very many people in history (or the present) who would be willing to do that (both Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. were prepared to die for their beliefs, by the way). Interesting, very interesting indeed...QUOTE]
Yes! It is all very interesting indeed! Thanks for a lively discussion.
Tammy
I should have posted this yesterday, but better late than never, right? Bakedpears, I'm sorry if my questioning has insulted you in any way: I am a teenager going through a tough time in my life (the anxiety and depression). Also, I just wanted to thank you for your input, it really helped to open my eyes to a new, refreshing look at Christianity. I now see that even the most devout of followers in any religion still have the same questions I have, but some are just afraid of asking (aloud or internally) because they don't want to lose their faith. I'm also beginning to understand why Christians and others proselytize (witness, convert, etc) others to their faith: believing that a best friend might go to hell based upon their beliefs (or lack thereof) sounds truly frightening. Being an agnostic, it would sound logical that I have lost faith in God, among other things. However, that is not the case: I neither lack faith nor own faith, for I can't accept or reject anything as true or false (even science) without personal, self-taught, firsthand knowledge and experience. This leads me to have an extrordinarily high open-mindedness, opening myself to all new trains of thought and all new possibilities. That is where the quote below comes in: I may not be religious (following a set religion), but I am still spiritual and appreciate religious diversity and the good works of others. When I say, "action is my only prayer," that only means that, instead of praying for a better world, I'd rather go out and volunteer and make a difference in the lives of others. Again, I'm sorry if I have insulted any of you in any way, and I greatly appreciate the opinions you shared on the questions, Bakedpears!