Mike,
Your posts are great, I wish I could do the same. You just write what is in your heart, no pressure to make it long or not.
Hope
The Challenge...Lesson 7
Mike -
Feel free to beat up my anxiety and depression. I'll help!
On a more serious note, I really don't know what caused the increase in anxiety. There was no specific event and I haven't had any significant change in my life. The depression is suspect is just a response to the anxiety. I don't know why they were constantly flip-flopping back to back either. That's something new to me.
That's good that you're working on your sleep again. My sleep is finally starting to normalize although I don't know if it's temporary or permanent. In the last week or so, the hours I sleep have been rapidly moving forward, that is, I was falling asleep later and later each day. It's finally gotten all the way around the clock so to speak so that now instead of wanting to sleep during the day, my body is finally sleeping at night. I can't take much credit for it since I haven't changed any of my patterns or approaches. But I'm thankful nonetheless.
Jamie
Feel free to beat up my anxiety and depression. I'll help!
On a more serious note, I really don't know what caused the increase in anxiety. There was no specific event and I haven't had any significant change in my life. The depression is suspect is just a response to the anxiety. I don't know why they were constantly flip-flopping back to back either. That's something new to me.That's good that you're working on your sleep again. My sleep is finally starting to normalize although I don't know if it's temporary or permanent. In the last week or so, the hours I sleep have been rapidly moving forward, that is, I was falling asleep later and later each day. It's finally gotten all the way around the clock so to speak so that now instead of wanting to sleep during the day, my body is finally sleeping at night. I can't take much credit for it since I haven't changed any of my patterns or approaches. But I'm thankful nonetheless.
Jamie
"Common things occur commonly. Uncommon things don't. Therefore, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." -- C.J. Peters
Lindalee -
Thank you for the welcome back and your supportive words.
Yes, I've also noticed that my progress is not a smooth ride forward. It's slow then fast, up then down, forward then backward. But ultimately I end up ahead of where I started so the end result is in the positive direction.
I have to say that during my deepest bouts with depression I was ready to call it quits. I mean that literally. I just didn't want to go on and felt hopeless as if I would never feel better again. Fortunately those thoughts and feelings faded with the depression and I'm back at a point where I can see that there is hope and a direction to strive towards.
Jamie
Thank you for the welcome back and your supportive words.
Yes, I've also noticed that my progress is not a smooth ride forward. It's slow then fast, up then down, forward then backward. But ultimately I end up ahead of where I started so the end result is in the positive direction.
I have to say that during my deepest bouts with depression I was ready to call it quits. I mean that literally. I just didn't want to go on and felt hopeless as if I would never feel better again. Fortunately those thoughts and feelings faded with the depression and I'm back at a point where I can see that there is hope and a direction to strive towards.
Jamie
"Common things occur commonly. Uncommon things don't. Therefore, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." -- C.J. Peters
I wanted to share a thought exercise that I've used in the past to help me cope when I feel overwhelmed or am punishing myself for not meeting goals and such. This doesn't work all the time, especially when I'm extremely anxious, but it has helped me out countless times over the years.
I begin by imagining viewing myself from overhead. I then pan the view out so that I can see the room I'm in and then the building. As I move outward the building gets smaller and then I can see the city blocks. Soon I see the whole city and can barely make out the building anymore.
I continue to pan out so that I can then see the whole region and then the State. Soon I see the entire country and then continent. As I pan even further, the whole Earth is visible. I keep moving backwards until I can see the Earth moving around the Sun and then the entire solar system. Next I can see other stars and then the entire galaxy. As I pan out even further I can start to see other galaxies and then galaxy clusters. I move even further out to where I can see superclusters and then all of the cosmos is before me.
At this point I can't even pin point where our galaxy is let alone the Earth, my building, or me. I then ask myself (for example), is it such a big deal I didn't make it to the grocery store today? When looking at life from this vantage point, I suddenly realize how silly it is that I put such importance on so many trivial things. Sometimes it even makes me laugh. Certainly there are some things that are very important, even when looking from the vantage point of the cosmos, but this technique definitely helps me weed out the trivial from the important.
Jamie
I begin by imagining viewing myself from overhead. I then pan the view out so that I can see the room I'm in and then the building. As I move outward the building gets smaller and then I can see the city blocks. Soon I see the whole city and can barely make out the building anymore.
I continue to pan out so that I can then see the whole region and then the State. Soon I see the entire country and then continent. As I pan even further, the whole Earth is visible. I keep moving backwards until I can see the Earth moving around the Sun and then the entire solar system. Next I can see other stars and then the entire galaxy. As I pan out even further I can start to see other galaxies and then galaxy clusters. I move even further out to where I can see superclusters and then all of the cosmos is before me.
At this point I can't even pin point where our galaxy is let alone the Earth, my building, or me. I then ask myself (for example), is it such a big deal I didn't make it to the grocery store today? When looking at life from this vantage point, I suddenly realize how silly it is that I put such importance on so many trivial things. Sometimes it even makes me laugh. Certainly there are some things that are very important, even when looking from the vantage point of the cosmos, but this technique definitely helps me weed out the trivial from the important.
Jamie
"Common things occur commonly. Uncommon things don't. Therefore, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." -- C.J. Peters
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NinjaFrodo
- Posts: 1263
- Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:00 am
mcshope;
Did anybody say anything after you quit the program? Anybody try to guilt trip you or manipulate you or push your buttons in any way? Way to go to make such a big step by the way.
Ah my bad. I also had that experience with the anxiety when I first started with the cardio. I didn't have it so much when I first started lifting weights though because I went and got a personal trainer to help me out. I got attention and help with working out and I think thats what stopped me from having all that anxiety. She also didn't create an overwhelming set of routines.
So lets look at the increased anxiety you're facing. Yes there is going to be some increase in anxiety but to what degree? I have no idea how much more anxious you are feeling since you stopped but perhaps you tried to do it too fast. Maybe you are feeling somewhat overwhelmed because of the speed you expect yourself to go, could this be a possbility? Are you slowly increasing exercising and slowly decreasing sugar? The ultimate goal maybe to do 20 minutes of cardio and eat no white sugar at all but maybe a smaller goal for now would suffice and you can work up to the ultimate goals. We are creatures of habit and stopping all at once can be a huge shock to the system especially when it comes to blood sugar. Have you tried adding more fruit while cutting down on sugar?
Always here to help and I wanted to point out that its really good that you show your appreciation. I appreciate that
Mike
Did anybody say anything after you quit the program? Anybody try to guilt trip you or manipulate you or push your buttons in any way? Way to go to make such a big step by the way.
Ah my bad. I also had that experience with the anxiety when I first started with the cardio. I didn't have it so much when I first started lifting weights though because I went and got a personal trainer to help me out. I got attention and help with working out and I think thats what stopped me from having all that anxiety. She also didn't create an overwhelming set of routines.
So lets look at the increased anxiety you're facing. Yes there is going to be some increase in anxiety but to what degree? I have no idea how much more anxious you are feeling since you stopped but perhaps you tried to do it too fast. Maybe you are feeling somewhat overwhelmed because of the speed you expect yourself to go, could this be a possbility? Are you slowly increasing exercising and slowly decreasing sugar? The ultimate goal maybe to do 20 minutes of cardio and eat no white sugar at all but maybe a smaller goal for now would suffice and you can work up to the ultimate goals. We are creatures of habit and stopping all at once can be a huge shock to the system especially when it comes to blood sugar. Have you tried adding more fruit while cutting down on sugar?
Always here to help and I wanted to point out that its really good that you show your appreciation. I appreciate that
Mike
Here is the link to the Letting Go thread which is designated for venting
http://forum.stresscenter.com/viewtopic ... 52&t=25087
You can follow me on Twitter, same username or check out my blog
http://ninjafrodo.blogspot.com/
http://forum.stresscenter.com/viewtopic ... 52&t=25087
You can follow me on Twitter, same username or check out my blog
http://ninjafrodo.blogspot.com/
-
NinjaFrodo
- Posts: 1263
- Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:00 am
Searunner;
I don't know if i've had the flip flop thing because I kinda just viewed anxiety and depression in the same category. Your situation is like a giant puzzle that I just want to figure out but I can't without all the pieces and its not really my puzzle to do in the first place either all I can attempt to do is help you find the missing pieces. Did you end up seeing a nutritionist?
Wow I can't even begin to imagine what your life has been like if you kept moving your sleep later and later each day. That would definately affect your digestion, your immune system and well many other systems. I'm assuming it would affect the pancreas and spleen too. This could be a big chunk of why you kept flip flopping. Have you looked up this kind of stuff online?
By the way that is a good visual exercise. I find it strange myself I mean I have sleep difficulties and I have a hard time visualizing things, you have sleep difficulties and it sounds like you can visualize quite well. I don't understand how that works.
Mike
I don't know if i've had the flip flop thing because I kinda just viewed anxiety and depression in the same category. Your situation is like a giant puzzle that I just want to figure out but I can't without all the pieces and its not really my puzzle to do in the first place either all I can attempt to do is help you find the missing pieces. Did you end up seeing a nutritionist?
Wow I can't even begin to imagine what your life has been like if you kept moving your sleep later and later each day. That would definately affect your digestion, your immune system and well many other systems. I'm assuming it would affect the pancreas and spleen too. This could be a big chunk of why you kept flip flopping. Have you looked up this kind of stuff online?
By the way that is a good visual exercise. I find it strange myself I mean I have sleep difficulties and I have a hard time visualizing things, you have sleep difficulties and it sounds like you can visualize quite well. I don't understand how that works.
Mike
Here is the link to the Letting Go thread which is designated for venting
http://forum.stresscenter.com/viewtopic ... 52&t=25087
You can follow me on Twitter, same username or check out my blog
http://ninjafrodo.blogspot.com/
http://forum.stresscenter.com/viewtopic ... 52&t=25087
You can follow me on Twitter, same username or check out my blog
http://ninjafrodo.blogspot.com/
Mike -
My anxiety and depression are very different so I have no difficulty telling them apart. This is an oversimplification but for discussion purposes my anxiety manifests itself as feelings of agitation, tension, fear, and even terror when I go all the way to panic. Of course there are the body symptoms that go along with the feelings including dizziness, rapid heartbeat, shallow breathing, temperature changes, muscle tension, circulation changes, nausea, palpitations, among others.
My depression manifests itself as feelings of hopelessness, sadness, lack of energy, lack of motivation, and at worst suicidal ideation. There aren't nearly as many body symptoms except fatigue, some body pain, lack of or too much sleep, among others. I often experience both together, but one is usually much more prevalent than the other. Sometimes I'll have just one or the other and it is a very rare occasion that I get a break from both simultaneously.
No, I haven't seen a nutritionist yet but it's still on my to-do list. Right now I'm just focusing on surviving. Yeah, the sleep thing has been pretty odd. I feel completely out of sorts, even having trouble telling what time of day it is without looking at a clock.
The visual exercise is something I came up with after thinking about concentrating "on the big picture". I don't quite understand the link you're making between sleep and visualization. Are you able to visualize more easily when you're better rested? My ability to visualize is only compromised when I'm really anxious. True, I tend to be more anxious when I've had less sleep, but for me I wouldn't necessarily equate sleep with my ability to visualize.
The only regular problem I have with visualization is trying to visualize myself doing things calmly that typically make me nervous. For example, if I'm meditating or doing relaxation exercises and try to visualize myself driving to the office without any anxiety, I almost always have anxious thoughts that intrude and ruin the visualization and feelings of relaxation. My anxiety response is so strong that I can't seem to let go of it even just in my thoughts.
My anxiety and depression are very different so I have no difficulty telling them apart. This is an oversimplification but for discussion purposes my anxiety manifests itself as feelings of agitation, tension, fear, and even terror when I go all the way to panic. Of course there are the body symptoms that go along with the feelings including dizziness, rapid heartbeat, shallow breathing, temperature changes, muscle tension, circulation changes, nausea, palpitations, among others.
My depression manifests itself as feelings of hopelessness, sadness, lack of energy, lack of motivation, and at worst suicidal ideation. There aren't nearly as many body symptoms except fatigue, some body pain, lack of or too much sleep, among others. I often experience both together, but one is usually much more prevalent than the other. Sometimes I'll have just one or the other and it is a very rare occasion that I get a break from both simultaneously.
No, I haven't seen a nutritionist yet but it's still on my to-do list. Right now I'm just focusing on surviving.
Yeah, the sleep thing has been pretty odd. I feel completely out of sorts, even having trouble telling what time of day it is without looking at a clock.The visual exercise is something I came up with after thinking about concentrating "on the big picture". I don't quite understand the link you're making between sleep and visualization. Are you able to visualize more easily when you're better rested? My ability to visualize is only compromised when I'm really anxious. True, I tend to be more anxious when I've had less sleep, but for me I wouldn't necessarily equate sleep with my ability to visualize.
The only regular problem I have with visualization is trying to visualize myself doing things calmly that typically make me nervous. For example, if I'm meditating or doing relaxation exercises and try to visualize myself driving to the office without any anxiety, I almost always have anxious thoughts that intrude and ruin the visualization and feelings of relaxation. My anxiety response is so strong that I can't seem to let go of it even just in my thoughts.
"Common things occur commonly. Uncommon things don't. Therefore, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." -- C.J. Peters
Mike -
I just had a realization that may explain why we're having a little difficulty understanding each other. I know you mention general anxiety and social anxiety quite a lot in your posts. Do you have panic attacks as well?
Before I get too far, please understand that I'm not trying to diminish anyone else's experience. I'm just starting to realize that we may be measuring things on different scales.
In my personal opinion, Lucinda described panic attacks pretty liberally in Session 2. Most of the examples she gave when she was trying to debate those who say they've never had a panic attack were not what I would call a panic attack. To me, a panic attack is when the instinctual, primitive brain takes over and body symptoms are so severe that a person cannot function in any way and their only motivation is to find safety or shelter immediately. It's what a gazelle would be feeling when being chased by a lion in a life or death pursuit. Rational thought stops and pure instinct for survival takes over.
When you have said in the last few posts that you've been having anxiety at a level of 8 or 9, how would equate that into words?
For me, an 8 or 9 means I'm quickly approaching the absolute terror I described above. I feel as though I'm in extreme peril and I must escape in any way possible. For me, general anxiety is below a 5. Once I get above a 5 then I'm going into panic. Above a 7, I am unable to do hardly anything. I can't work on the computer, I can't watch TV, I can't play games. I am unable to sit still and can barely hold a conversation. Relaxation is useless at that point and I can only wait for the symptoms to abate to a lower level. Up in the 8 to 10 range, I can even barely use my positive self talk because it's drowned out by the messages screaming from my mind telling me I'm in mortal danger.
Is this the same for you? If not, then I can see why some of the things I write don't make sense to you and vice versa. Again, I am in no way trying to minimize any of the suffering you go through, I'm just curious if we are talking about the same thing or if instead our scales have different meanings.
Jamie
I just had a realization that may explain why we're having a little difficulty understanding each other. I know you mention general anxiety and social anxiety quite a lot in your posts. Do you have panic attacks as well?
Before I get too far, please understand that I'm not trying to diminish anyone else's experience. I'm just starting to realize that we may be measuring things on different scales.
In my personal opinion, Lucinda described panic attacks pretty liberally in Session 2. Most of the examples she gave when she was trying to debate those who say they've never had a panic attack were not what I would call a panic attack. To me, a panic attack is when the instinctual, primitive brain takes over and body symptoms are so severe that a person cannot function in any way and their only motivation is to find safety or shelter immediately. It's what a gazelle would be feeling when being chased by a lion in a life or death pursuit. Rational thought stops and pure instinct for survival takes over.
When you have said in the last few posts that you've been having anxiety at a level of 8 or 9, how would equate that into words?
For me, an 8 or 9 means I'm quickly approaching the absolute terror I described above. I feel as though I'm in extreme peril and I must escape in any way possible. For me, general anxiety is below a 5. Once I get above a 5 then I'm going into panic. Above a 7, I am unable to do hardly anything. I can't work on the computer, I can't watch TV, I can't play games. I am unable to sit still and can barely hold a conversation. Relaxation is useless at that point and I can only wait for the symptoms to abate to a lower level. Up in the 8 to 10 range, I can even barely use my positive self talk because it's drowned out by the messages screaming from my mind telling me I'm in mortal danger.
Is this the same for you? If not, then I can see why some of the things I write don't make sense to you and vice versa. Again, I am in no way trying to minimize any of the suffering you go through, I'm just curious if we are talking about the same thing or if instead our scales have different meanings.
Jamie
"Common things occur commonly. Uncommon things don't. Therefore, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." -- C.J. Peters
I am on the road to recovery. There wil be obstacles, and I will overcome them. I am moving in the right direction. I must feel the anxiety and see that it will not hurt me. Life is good
been pretty good the last 2 days...nice weather and lots of trees with lots of leaves to rake here so been out enjoying the sun while doing yard work.....
today I actually went to the bank and did very well......especially since it was already 3pm and traffic was starting to get bad.....there was only 1 person ahead of me so I was only in there about 10 minutes...but I purposely dd not sign my checks or fill out my deposit slip before I went in so that would force me to stay longer in the bank having to take care of that in there....I am planning on running up to the store later and get some driving in.....Im going to try and go to the grocery store this week-end in the evening...
listen to the tape today.....this is about the farthest I have ever gotten in the program because I always felt better and was functioning.....this is a big lesson for me...I never speak up for myself and I take so many things personally......then I beat myself up for allowing people to treat me the way that they do.....I do know how to be aggressive, but not assertive.....I get to the point that feelings get bottled up then I just go off aggressively attacking whom ever is in my path.....so, I will be working on this....my plan is to start my conversations with "I"....that way I am making my feelings legit and important, while not defensively attacking others....
btw, still talk to the new man online
we really have alot of fun
I have caught myself getting upset a few times with things he has said, but I now realize that I am bringing old baggage from ex and blaming this guy.....so Im working on that also
been pretty good the last 2 days...nice weather and lots of trees with lots of leaves to rake here so been out enjoying the sun while doing yard work.....
today I actually went to the bank and did very well......especially since it was already 3pm and traffic was starting to get bad.....there was only 1 person ahead of me so I was only in there about 10 minutes...but I purposely dd not sign my checks or fill out my deposit slip before I went in so that would force me to stay longer in the bank having to take care of that in there....I am planning on running up to the store later and get some driving in.....Im going to try and go to the grocery store this week-end in the evening...
listen to the tape today.....this is about the farthest I have ever gotten in the program because I always felt better and was functioning.....this is a big lesson for me...I never speak up for myself and I take so many things personally......then I beat myself up for allowing people to treat me the way that they do.....I do know how to be aggressive, but not assertive.....I get to the point that feelings get bottled up then I just go off aggressively attacking whom ever is in my path.....so, I will be working on this....my plan is to start my conversations with "I"....that way I am making my feelings legit and important, while not defensively attacking others....
btw, still talk to the new man online
we really have alot of fun
I have caught myself getting upset a few times with things he has said, but I now realize that I am bringing old baggage from ex and blaming this guy.....so Im working on that also
SeaRunner,
Thank you for pointing out the differences on intelligence and knowledge. I think I understand that. I guess I just thought less of myself for not making a career and having the recognition and prestige that comes with a recognized profession. Many people view what I do as not being a "real" job. Being at home, and having a very flexible schedule. I know in reality that what I do is a multitasking job, very necessary and a behind the scene person. In that way I don't mind, but sometimes I compare my job to some peoples and think less of myself. I'm working on letting go of my low self esteem!
I have panic attacks just like you. I can tell when my level is at a 5 and 10 is defiantly out of real thinking range. Even 7-10. Thankfully I have managed to not have a "real" attack sense April. I still have stretches of anxiety and I do get times I feel pretty good. It really depends on what is going on in my life.
I feel for you, I can get depressed and have small bouts, again thankfully it is not a ball and chain I have all the time. ALWAYS REMEMBER THERE IS HOPE! Always!
I love the imagery! Its sooooo true. I often look up to the sky and stare at the stars and see how little we are, and how small these giant (we think) issues are, they are nothing. That is where our culture does not support its people. As long as we are consumers we have a place, but its so wrong. We need more. There is a book I read daily, I would like to recommend to you, Its called " Native Thinking for White minds" You can get it on ebay for less than $20. It has some great things to think about and you can even read a few things on line to see if you like it first. It deals with a different perception on ways of life. I like it and it does go with this program as well. Give it a thought.
We are here for each other!
Thank you for pointing out the differences on intelligence and knowledge. I think I understand that. I guess I just thought less of myself for not making a career and having the recognition and prestige that comes with a recognized profession. Many people view what I do as not being a "real" job. Being at home, and having a very flexible schedule. I know in reality that what I do is a multitasking job, very necessary and a behind the scene person. In that way I don't mind, but sometimes I compare my job to some peoples and think less of myself. I'm working on letting go of my low self esteem!
I have panic attacks just like you. I can tell when my level is at a 5 and 10 is defiantly out of real thinking range. Even 7-10. Thankfully I have managed to not have a "real" attack sense April. I still have stretches of anxiety and I do get times I feel pretty good. It really depends on what is going on in my life.
I feel for you, I can get depressed and have small bouts, again thankfully it is not a ball and chain I have all the time. ALWAYS REMEMBER THERE IS HOPE! Always!
I love the imagery! Its sooooo true. I often look up to the sky and stare at the stars and see how little we are, and how small these giant (we think) issues are, they are nothing. That is where our culture does not support its people. As long as we are consumers we have a place, but its so wrong. We need more. There is a book I read daily, I would like to recommend to you, Its called " Native Thinking for White minds" You can get it on ebay for less than $20. It has some great things to think about and you can even read a few things on line to see if you like it first. It deals with a different perception on ways of life. I like it and it does go with this program as well. Give it a thought.
We are here for each other!