Lucinda is dead wrong on this...

Learn how to comfort yourself, encourage yourself, and like yourself. This session is chock-full of POWERFUL tools for taking charge and changing your life for the better.
Faith_TX
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:24 am

Post by Faith_TX » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:10 am

My shrink would tell me I need to let my new personality harden (like it's out of a mold) so I don't just fall back into my old habits and behaviors, so I might need some support from you guys. I'm resisting the urge to call her and tell her it was all a mistake, when I finally feel free and that a burden has been lifted from me.
Wow. . . I like that " personality needs to harden" thing. That makes SO MUCH sense! I have experienced that myself. I'll learn a new tool or attitude and it feels great. Then I'll slip back into an old habit or pattern. It sounds like you're making awesome progress!

I agree with one of the previous posters. . . you don't stay with someone out of guilt. I mean, how would you feel if she was staying with you only because she felt like you couldn't survive without her. That would be an insult to me, and I'm guessing you feel the same.

This time apart will help you see how life without her will be. Maybe you guys really are good for each other, but you need time apart just to see it. But, then again, maybe not. And if not, you will find a new life and so will she. It will be OK.

Now keep your hands off that phone!!
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.
~~ Ronald Reagan

NinjaFrodo
Posts: 1263
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:00 am

Post by NinjaFrodo » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:17 am

I can also relate to the personality needs to harden thing as well. I'm also going through a transitionary period.

Faith TX brang up a good point about staying with someone out of guilt...one way you could look at it is like trying to give her an excuse not to grow. I'm not sure if she fits in this category but there are many people out there that will instead of deal with their own issues they'll grab onto a safe person so they don't have to face them. Sometimes the best gift you can give someone is the opportunity to allow them to face their limitations and grow and get to a point where they actually enjoy their life...that's a good thing isn't it?

Mike
Here is the link to the Letting Go thread which is designated for venting
http://forum.stresscenter.com/viewtopic ... 52&t=25087

You can follow me on Twitter, same username or check out my blog

http://ninjafrodo.blogspot.com/

Don57
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Don57 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:02 pm

The following seems insensitive to me, am I the only one?
But how old are you? It's time for you to be the adult and stop using panic attacks/depression as an excuse to live like an adolescent. Get a job. Break up with the girlfriend who is an emotional drag on you. Make an adult decision.
Spowser,

So, for those with panic, I could be just as insensitive and tell them what they know they need to do as well. But, I know from my own experience with panic that it's not that easy just to get over it and past it. So, telling someone to "just do it" might be true, but compassion for the person is just as important. Without it many people will have a difficult time improving.

What does age have to do with struggling with these disorders? What I hear you saying is you "should" know how to take care of yourself by now, you "should" just break it off with the gf. I agree, a person growing up in an emotionally healhty home would probably know how to do that at his age. But, you seem to overlook the obstacles it appears he grew up with, a major one appearing to me to be neglect [money replaced parental involvement].
I guess I'm finally learning that my sense of entitlement is unfounded, that the world doesn't owe me anything, etc., etc. I've heard it before and that doesn't make it any easier and it totally sucks.
Does this sound healthy or unhealthy? Where would that have come from if not the parents and how they interacted with him?
I want to move out of my city but my girlfriend is 38, still lives in her parents' basement, is essentially economically trapped, and I feel as though I'm her last shot at any sort of romance and that I can't break up with her because it would make me a jerk after she's helped me for so long. I don't want to be "just another guy" who is helped by a girl, then dumps her when he's feeling better, so I'm martyring myself like a suicide bomber to keep her happy.
Do you understand the emotional pain and guilt associated with this type of thinking? It's hard to break up, even though you want to, because you are not your own person, your self is tied up in the other person and it's a tug of war. You want to break up, but you can't, the guilt is too much. And if you do you feel like a total reject for an extended period of time. I've been here. He probably does need to break up with her, but it's very hard to do. I finally did in my own situation. years ago. but it took 3 years.

HE appears to be obsessed with women. That's a mirror image of who I was also. I wasn't good enough or secure enough on my own, I believed I needed someone else to complete me.

All of this was "sick" thinking on my part. I was a very sick puppy. And it all began with over protection as a child.

Over protection communicates to the child that they are not capable. The parents do things for the child that are inappropriate, from finding the kid at an older age a job, to a gf, to making decisions about the grown adults life that they have no right to make. But the child's boundaries are enmeshed in the parents. He doesn't realize the decisions made for him are not appropriate. Note the quote below.
My parents used money to solve most of their child-raising problems, and when things didn't go right for their children, they pulled strings or interfered.


This is over protection and inappropriate control and interference in the child's life. IF this happens continually, you never grow emotionally and learn how to deal with your own problems. You learn to lean and become dependent on Mom and/or Dad. It can literally cripple a guy emotionally and stop emotional growth at or near adolescence. That's why I see he's behaving like one. It's telling an adult child who is in his 30s but age 14 or so emotionally to "just do it". I see it as uncaring and being ignorant of the issues involved. There is a lot of emotional maturity that's got to take place for him to get on with his life. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. It sounds like people who don't struggle with panic saying "just get over it" to me.

Butterfly,
I've got to say Don, this surprises me. You posted some really long and opinionated things on here, telling Doogie his parents "abused him" in a "sick and perverted" way, making assumptions about his upbringing, his beliefs, etc., and then you are insulted by someone else's point of view? That is not like you! It seems like this particular thread has hit a nerve for you...are you posting for Doogie or yourself?
I saw things in doogiet's post that tipped me off to things that happened to me as well. I have already explained about his parents. I wasn't trying to use sick and perverted in a mean or demeaning way, but that's what over protection is for boys. Its affects produce very sick people with very dysfunctional or perverted thinking. That's what I was trying to say. I have been where doogiet is now. I recognize the thinking.

Over protection communicates rejection to a child. The child interprets it as not being capable enough to handle his own affairs, i.e. "not good enough" which is rejection. That is what is communicated in a physically abusive or verbally abusive home as well, rejection. The results are the same because children in physically or verbally abusive homes AND children in over protective homes experience the same thing, rejection. But, over protection, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to be as tolerable by society even though it is a recognized maladaptive behavior in psychiatry.

I was posting for both of us. You tell me what I was wrong about after doogie's own posts? It appears I hit the nail on the head for the most part.

I don't blame my parents for what happened. But I do recognize how my problems got started and perpetuated and it originated with my parents and their ancestors. The child, when he is a child, has no blame in this, none. But for whatever reason when that child grows up with the faulty thinking he picked up from his parents, now he, the child is to blame. Not fair or just in my opinion.
Life's battles don't always go to the stronger, the smarter, the faster hand; But sooner or later the person who wins is the one who thinks "I can." Author Unknown

http://dp19032k9.webs.com

Don57
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Don57 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:01 pm

Some education on over protection. It is recognized by psychology and psychiatry professionals as "emotional abuse". As the link below states:

<A HREF="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_h ... tBody;col1" TARGET=_blank>http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_h ... dy;col1</A>
The Five Cycles of Emotional Abuse: Investigating a Malignant Victimization

Emotional abuse is a form of psychological manipulation and acute victimization that gets considerably less attention in professional therapeutic circles than its counterparts, sexual abuse and physical abuse. There are three primary factors that influence this exclusion: the often covert nature of emotional abuse; a lack of acceptance of the severity and longevity of the impact of emotional abuse; and the relatively uncharted territory of the phenomenon of emotional abuse, including a lack of subdivisions within the field of study that can enhance understanding and give rise to dear identification of developmental problems, their ramifications and effective treatment plans. I will address these three issues, in turn, for the balance of this article.

The Covert Nature of Emotional Abuse

When clients honestly assess the present and are either afraid to admit to themselves what they want out of life or believe they are not good enough to have, or even pursue, what they want, emotional abuse is very often the cause.

When it comes to emotional abuse, the infection and subsequent scarring are on the inside. From external appearances it is impossible to assess with accuracy who may be a charismatic and gregarious father in public but a bullying, belittling force behind closed doors. Similarly, it is impossible to know which mother may appear to want nothing but the best for her child, yet be in fact so terrified of being alone, that her efforts to keep the child safe and satisfied are really intended to prevent that child's healthy individuation.

Often in an emotionally abusive household it becomes a "he-said-she-said" situation, where an abuser denies and the abused affirms what actually goes on. Often the abused are children, who have neither words nor perspective to communicate their pain and are naturally granted a lesser authority and platform in society. Over time abused children often look back and struggle to reconnect with what actually happened to them, to recover what feelings, attitudes and beliefs were encouraged or discredited in their youth and precisely what experiences they underwent at a time when their cognitive abilities were only beginning to form.
Note the terms used, psychological manipulation and acute victimization. Whether a person realizes they are behaving this way, it is sick and perverted. It also states that these children, now adults struggle to reconnect with what actually happened to them. I was 34 before I had so much pain I began the search for answers. That is why age has nothing to do with this. Some people live their entire lives wondering what happened to them. That is why I saw the post as I appropriately described it, making judgments about someone and something you appear to have no knowledge of. That is offensive to me.
Life's battles don't always go to the stronger, the smarter, the faster hand; But sooner or later the person who wins is the one who thinks "I can." Author Unknown

http://dp19032k9.webs.com

MC Grace
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:12 pm

Post by MC Grace » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:23 pm

Hi doog,
I just want to say that I find your writing very inspiring. Maybe you came on strong in the beginning, but. . . it seems like you are honest and working hard.
I think it would be great if you kept a little journal of some sort on one of the forums, maybe use one of the suggestions in Session 3 as a starting point. At least a couple of us have done this and we've found it very helpful.

Lesson 3 is such a great lesson. Of course they all work together well, but, so many of us review 3 and go back to it when we are ready for more growth and big changes.

So, a journal might be a good way to express yourself, stay connected, and show both you and others a little of your progress. You could try it for a day, a week, a month. . . .

I pulled some of the quotes from your last post that I found especially helpful--and copied them here. I didn't grow up with money, but I can relate. Thanks!
. . . . there were certainly some very poor decisions along the way. . . . You can't expect to suddenly have what it takes to survive on your own when you reach a certain age. If you locked a child in a Skinner Box and then said, "Okay, he's 18, he'll be able to look after himself now," we all know that wouldn't be true.

. . . . But they must be right, right? I mean, they're parents and they're older and they wouldn't steer me wrong.

. . . . Anyway, I told her yesterday that I wanted some time to be alone, to think things through. I'm telling myself that I'm not a terrible person for wanting to be alone, for wanting to sort things out. In the past, I would have just beat myself up and told myself that I was ruining my life, that I was stupid, dumb, etc. Now I'm telling myself I'm in a transitory stage.

My shrink would tell me I need to let my new personality harden (like it's out of a mold) so I don't just fall back into my old habits and behaviors, so I might need some support from you guys. I'm resisting the urge to call her and tell her it was all a mistake, when I finally feel free and that a burden has been lifted from me.
Keep the success coming!
I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.
Psalm 13:6

NinjaFrodo
Posts: 1263
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:00 am

Post by NinjaFrodo » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:44 pm

The following seems insensitive to me, am I the only one?

quote:
But how old are you? It's time for you to be the adult and stop using panic attacks/depression as an excuse to live like an adolescent. Get a job. Break up with the girlfriend who is an emotional drag on you. Make an adult decision.
Don I agree that this does have alot of potential to come off as a little insensitive. I do understand that the person who wrote this is trying to help the guy out and thats great however....it is easy to see the problem as something like a math problem...A, B & C are the reason why the value of D is so low...so taking out A,B & C will resolve the problem. This is great but most of the time it isn't this simple and it doesn't matter how much time you try putting yourself in that person's shoes or how much you have in common with the person...you cannot encompass the person's whole situation 100% and of course there is going to be some level of ignorance involved.

He knows what he needs to do...he's already mentioned that...it is just overcoming the obsticals that stop him from getting there and I believe what he needs more now is encouragement rather then commands...I'm not sure if this is how you ment it and I appologize if my assumption is wrong. He is also taking effort by 1...being here and posting on the forums...2 seeing a therapist and 3 he is actually listening to what we're saying. He's getting there and he needs to go at his own pace.


Mike
Here is the link to the Letting Go thread which is designated for venting
http://forum.stresscenter.com/viewtopic ... 52&t=25087

You can follow me on Twitter, same username or check out my blog

http://ninjafrodo.blogspot.com/

doogiet
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:00 am

Post by doogiet » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:07 am

Hey, all. I want to clear a few things up. My parents didn't neglect me, in the sense that I was a baby screaming for attention, rattling in its crib. They honestly wanted the best for me. They're both still alive (we're not speaking). (This is probably going to be a long post, but at least it'll be well-written). :)

Everything was fine in my house hold until my older sister hit high school. She then went through her rebellious phase (dyed her hair black, got a nose piercing, wore goth close, changed all her friends, etc.) My parents (especially my mother) are both from very stiff-upper-lip conservative families and had no idea how to deal with her. Half the time I'd come home from school and I'd find my Mom crying in her bedroom. Eventually I got so sick of it that I locked the door to her room from the outside so she couldn't go in and cry, but she would just drive off in her car and cry. It got to a point where my best friend wouldn't even have to ask where my Mom was; she was just always upstairs, crying.

The slightest thing would set her off: a tree was cut down in our yard, so she cried. She tried helping me put a tie on but I brushed her off and so she cried. This happened all the time.

My Dad, being a doctor, spent most of his time on-call, meaning he'd have to get up at 2:00 am and go to the hospital. I don't want to say, "Oh, he was a terrible father because he was never around," but, yeah, he was gone a lot of the time. If there's a grudge I have against him, it's that because of his work (and my mother, being a nurse) would always come home and talk about the various things they had seen on the job. That was fine, but the problem was that, well, all they saw all day were horrible things like head trauma and broken wrists and legs and necks, concussions, etc. So they discouraged me from doing anything active. Skiing would lead to a fractured wrist ("We see that all the time".) Football would lead to post-anterioal-gobbledy-medical-jargon bone compressions. The lesson to be learned? Don't do anything. Drive safely, because you could flip your car and end up with a dysmexic-alpha-class hip contusion. Careful riding your bike, because you could end up with a sub-partoreal hemotoma in your skull. And for God's sake don't drink or try drugs, because you could irrevocably alter your brain's neuroplasticity. Just go to school, come home.

I just don't know if I would consider this to be neglect.

My sister failed her driver's license test but I passed, and so I got the task of driving home her boyfriends. She never came with me, she always just "got tired". There was no arguing with my father on this, it was just "do it." After all, the hospital could phone at any time and he would have to leave. My mom would be in her room, crying.

My father told me over and over not to do anything to upset my mother. I can hear it in my head. "Don't upset your mother. Don't upset your mother." If my sister had an essay to write for school, my dad forced me to write/edit it for her. If I didn't, the line of thinking was my sister will freak out, my mom will cry. If this can be prevented by having me write her papers for her, do it.

When my sister eventually moved out and got her own apartment, I went to her housewarming party. At that point she said, "There are going to be a lot people doing drugs here and they're not comfortable with you around, so leave." So I left.

I can't count the number of conversations my parents and I had about what to do about my sister. Should we (god, it's so obvious now that I was practically a co-parent) kick her out of the house? Cut her off financially? Change the locks on the doors? Call the police the next time she goes on a screaming rampage?

My sister was adored by all of her friends at school (she's very attractive) but she was completely two-faced. I don't know if this was her way of dealing with my Dad always working and my mother always crying, but if something didn't go her way she would shout and scream and scream and shout. I think is the reason that I have problems around beautiful women; I think that they look great on the surface, but if they're anything like my sister, they're seconds aware from screaming at me. It's like they're ticking time-bombs.

In the midst of all of this, I was completely panicking at school, at home, everywhere. I would get all the horrible body symptoms and feel like death was moments away. There was no safe place. There was no safe person. I had no idea what the hell was wrong with me, and I spent countless hours in washrooms in restaurants, at school, at the mall, movie theatres, locked in bathroom stalls, either sure that I was going to die on the spot, or slapping myself in the face telling me to "snap out of it." I couldn't decide what was wrong with me, so I kept saying, "It's not your body, it's your mind. No, it's not your mind, it's your body." Back and forth, forever.

I could escape the situation at home (which I thought was normal) at high school, but I was very badly bullied by a girl there. I still don't know what I ever did to upset her. She would cut me down in front of her friends, make snide remarks., etc. I had no idea how to stand up for myself. At one point she took my music folder (I was in the band) and hid it under the sink in a washroom so I was forced to copy all my music out from the conductor's score by hand. There was no end to it. I tried everything I could to be friendly to her, but it only made things worse.

My parents (especially my mother) had a strict "we don't talk about sex" rule, to the point where if they rented a movie and there was a love scene, my mother would fast-forward it. My Mom took the family to see A Chorus Line, but when the song started about a girl who wanted surgery to enhance her chest and her butt started, my Mom made all of us walk out. Eventually I connected my panic attacks with my sexual thoughts about the girls in high school. I thought if only I could not be a sexual person, the panic would go away. I thought God was punishing me with panic attacks for how I would steal glances down their shirts when they leaned forward. I thought he was punishing me for, how to put this delicately, taking matters into my own hands.

I prayed and prayed and prayed to God to either just kill me or take my panic attacks from me, but he never did. Eventually I concluded that God didn't exist because he wasn't answering my prayers. I was trying to be the best, most perfect son I could be, and I didn't deserve what was happening to me.

I don't want to turn this thread into a religious one, but after the hell of high school and panic attacks, I cannot, will not and never in the future will believe in God, Jesus or the like.

I loved music, so my parents got me a piano teacher. But they had to have the best for their son, so instead of just getting "some guy", I took lessons from a teacher who was 84-years-old, had a doctorate in music, earned The Order of Canada, and was blind. I remember not wearing a tie to a recital and was forced to write lines. I once had to take a Greyhound bus home from a school trip so that I could play in a recital. My lessons were, well...I don't know what to say. Basically, I was taught that if you couldn't play something perfectly, not to play it. It was never about going in and making music, it was about going in and pressing the keys in the right order and avoiding mistakes at all costs. I think this is where my perfectionism started.

So, to sum this all up: fighting at home, two-faced sister, father always working, mother locked in her bedroom crying all the time, bullied at school, a cultivated sense of perfectionism.

I just don't know if I would call this neglect, that's all.

Don57
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Don57 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:56 am

I'll throw this out for thought. [not commands, as Mike suggested]

This comes from "Parents Guide to Top 10 Dangers Teens Face" by Stepehen Arterburn and Jim Burns.
That is perhaps the best way to describe what dysfunctional means. It simply describes something that doesn't work. When a family doesn't work--when a family is broken or hurting--it's dysfunctional
Would you agree that your family was or is broken or hurting? [Mom crying, daughter having some pretty serious problems and you with panic attacks] Is this a picture of a functional family?
"One word that describes a dysfuntional familiy's experience is often neglected. That word is pain. Those who live and grow up in dysfunctional families hurt deeply. Often the pain is so strong that it thwarts their efforts to succeed."
"Roles That Are Played in Dysfunctional Families
Besides the basic physical needs of food, shelter, and clothing, all of us have emotional needs. In a healthy family system, the members as a unit provide one another with emotional comfort, safety, and security, and they instill feelings of self-esteem and self-worth while allowing room for autonomy and self-discovery.

Within a dysfunctional family system, however, members find that the whole family structure isn't meeting their basic psychological needs. Instead, needs are met by individual members, each of whom finds a different role to play to compensate for needs not met, or instilled, or ingtegrated by the family unit. The role isn't a true reflection of each person. Rather the role engulfs each person who uses it as a means of survival. As familiy member's identities become wrapped up in their roles, the true individuals are lost until a major crisis may force the members to go back and try to retrieve what was left behind in childhood."
Do you think that your needs for self esttem, autonomy [self government], and self discovery were met in your family?
Life's battles don't always go to the stronger, the smarter, the faster hand; But sooner or later the person who wins is the one who thinks "I can." Author Unknown

http://dp19032k9.webs.com

Don57
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Don57 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:26 am

Children in these families to a greater or lesser degree lose touch with who they are as individuals. They assume a role within the family and sacrifice their individuality for that role. Therefore, they lose touch with who they are, their own identity.

I see that as the main problem. We lose our personal boundaries or never had them to begin with. We are in a family structure that enmeshes and mingles different family member's boundaries. We survive this way while at home, but out in the world the same system doesn't work. WE don't know who we are or how to function because we don't have a personal identify. Because we have lost our personal identity, we can't grow emotionally into a mature adult until we find that personal identity. In our adult lives we take on roles as well, because this is how we learned to survive in childhood. One of your roles, as I see it, is to take care of the girlfriend at the sacrifice of your own desires and identity. It's a dysfunctional, it doesn't work.

I also was reluctant to see the damage from my own past because my parents were good people and they did the best they could. I still love them, even though both of them are deceased now. But the evidence is there, and I've made some serious mistakes with my own child as a result, not knowing what normal is supposed to be.

Do you think your Dad's work required so much time that frequently it took priority over other important matters such as family? If so, it may could be classifed as workaholism, and the resulting matters which suffered insufficient attention could be said to have suffered neglect.
Life's battles don't always go to the stronger, the smarter, the faster hand; But sooner or later the person who wins is the one who thinks "I can." Author Unknown

http://dp19032k9.webs.com

Don57
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Don57 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:42 am

I thought if only I could not be a sexual person, the panic would go away. I thought God was punishing me with panic attacks for how I would steal glances down their shirts when they leaned forward. I thought he was punishing me for, how to put this delicately, taking matters into my own hands.
I see this as very common thinking among those of us who have problems. Our minds and emotions are at odds with one another with what we have learned or observed in our parents behavior growing up. I passed this on to my child as well, I think.

This is my thinking and I don't know if it is normal or not, but it's different from how I used to beat myself up for what I consider natural, normal human emotions and desires. Your are wanting to be a non-sexual being, yet you were born with genitals and the hormones that become active at puberty to cause sexual desires and emotions. Taking matters into your own hands [lol], as you put it, is simply a normal desire and emotion resulting from those hormones. There's nothing wrong with you for having such thoughts and desires. You're normal. That is simply a normal part of maturing. I would suggest your Mother didn't handle the sex part very well. It's not something to be ashamed of, or try to deny that it's a part of life, but that sounds like how she tried to view and handle. I am guilty of the same behavior around my son. My behavior came from what is taught in the church. Some are better in knowing how to view it from scripture than others. I think to just not make it a big deal is the best way to handle it and understand that a kid at puberty and beyond is at times going to "take matters into his own hands." lol It's okay to be who we are, not what we are not [perfect and pure] but understand there is also a need for restraint or discipline. Balance.

I will say that I think that the better a child's need for intimacy and love are met, the less the child will feel a need to take matters into their own hands whether it is sexual, drugs, rebellion, or whatever.
Life's battles don't always go to the stronger, the smarter, the faster hand; But sooner or later the person who wins is the one who thinks "I can." Author Unknown

http://dp19032k9.webs.com

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