Lucinda is dead wrong on this...

[NinjaFrodo]

Doogiet

No, I didn't have an alcoholic parent. No, I wasn't beaten. I had/have everything going for me. I'm good looking (somewhat), my parents are wealthy, I've had a good education, etc., etc.

In many diffrent parts of life there always needs to be a balance...in this case I'd say it is one between good and bad. Now I'm not saying you but in situations like this when people are given everything as they grow up it robs them of the opportunity to work for things and they end up not appreciating the effort it took to getting those things. I'm not saying this is a bad thing...it is just how things turn out. They don't see the effort so they just don't understand. This can also make things harder in life as expectations of how things should be like how they were while growing up are there and if life cannot meet these expectations it can be very hard to function...maybe these people don't know how to handle the situations otherwise.

I honestly wouldn't beat yourself up for making wrong decisions...I'm sure many of the people on this website or I should say...in this world have done this and it's reasonable, you are human after all right? Or have you been injected with some sorta super human power? Are you a robot? Expecting yourself to always make the right decision or never make wrong decisions is not realistic and you gatta give yourself some slack...you made these decisions based on the view points you were brought up with...it's obvious that some of these were untrue view points and so of course you're going to make some wrong judgements.

I don't know if it's obsessive thinking, but I think all the time about how I wish I could live my life differently. But we all do that, I suppose. So in this case I'm just another angry Gen-Xer who is growing up and learning that, hey, guess what, Sesame Street was wrong. I can't be whatever I want. I'm just another person on a planet of six billion, and contrary to my previously held belief, no one cares. No one cares if I get better except me. No one cares if make the most out of my life.

It's great that you recognize that you aren't better than the other 6 billion people on this planet but honestly...everybody on this planet has endless potential...of course some people wouldn't be able to do some things if they are disabled and may have some other limitations but that doesn't mean you can't be an important force among others in this world. By the way...if nobody cared why are we responding to your posts?

I know if were to split up that it would force myself to bite the bullet, leave town, get a job, etc., but I can't seem to force myself to do it, probably because I have low self-esteem that tells me that I'm never going to find anyone who will tolerate me and all of my flaws. [/QUOTE

I've come to learn quite recently actually that forcing yourself to do something when you don't feel comfortable doing it...especially if it is really huge is not going to be helpful to you at all...you really gatta get yourself to that state first. If you are super stressed out honestly how can you put yourself in more stress and feel good about it? Make yourself feel better first and then try tackling it.

I honestly don't usually post in these types of threads but I do see alot of potential in you. I believe in you.


Mike

[Lynnier]

Hi Doogie: I saw your answer to my question at 5:45 this morning, when I realized that I had to get dressed and go to a meeting, and I felt bad that I wasn't able to answer your email.

There are some things you said in your post that are not true. First and foremost, you are not in this alone. There is a community of people, brought about by this fabulous program, who really do care if you get well. I am among them.

You are intelligent, smart and gifted, a talented musician (I can say this because I can't carry a tune in a bucket) and someone with a great deal of potential. However, something is holding you back. Perhaps it is the panic attacks, maybe it's fear. I know in my case, it's been both. And, for a long time it was real easy to blame external circumstances for that. My husband died, my business closed, my finances are shot, on and on and on.

I also know that my life has been saved by this program and the things that it teaches. Like you, I once thought that leaving a fiancee was the worst choice I could make, and for six long and miserable years, I refused to do anything to leave him. After all, who would put up with me, and what did I really deserve? Long before I found StressCenter.com and started this program, I met someone who loves me the way I deserve to be loved and, despite this depression, makes my heart soar! There is someone out there for everyone.

I contend that your problem is not the way your parents did (or didn't) raise you. Your problem is that you've reached the point in your life - like every one of the 6 billion people have or will - where you realize that you've made mistakes. Sometimes the hardest mistakes to live with are the ones you've made fully knowing the consequences that are possible. However, you've made these mistakes and you regret them. You're also learning that life is not fair. Don't confuse this with "you are not special" which you are. It's just a simple fact, life is not fair. Anytime something happens, don't tell yourself that your not special enough...Tell yourself that life is not fair.

I really hope all goes well with you and your recovery from depression and anxiety. I really DO care what happens, so please let me know. Okay?!?!?!

[Don57]

I didn't have alcoholic parents, wasn't abused, etc. But.........my Mother lost a child after birth about a year and a half before I was born. So, this helps explain why she wanted to protect me to the point of over protection.

Here's what I see with you doogiet. You grew up dependent upon your parents and their wealth. For a child, this is normal, but in adolescence we are to break from that dependence if we are to be healthy adults. You never broke from that dependence, you never developed emotional independence. As a result, you are still emotionally and financially dependent upon them. Though I didn't have the wealth you have, and I am very thankful for that, I still can very much identify with where you are coming from.

You don't "get it" when it comes to developing your self esteem, in my opinion. Wealthy people tend to have a sense of entitlement, I think. It's only money, nothing more. It doesn't make you better than anybody else. Money simply enables us to do things we couldn't without it. It does not and can not bestow self esteem on us, make us capable etc. It is merely a tool to be used.

Yes, you are special, everyone is, all six billion of us. No, no one cares or is responsib le for how well you do in life but you. That is totally up to you. But, yes, you are special, unique with unique talents and good straits which have a unique fingerprint in this world. No one else is like you in those respects.

You are telling yourself lies and you believe those lies. No one can make you believe in yourself but you, this must come from within, not from external forces. You are dependent upon privilege, getting your way, to be emotionally stable, in my opinion. It's time to grow up and leave the nest. Time to begin to strenthen those wings so that you can do so. It's time to break from privilege and wealth and for you to begin to make your own way. Don't take another dime from Mama and Daddy. Your adult life is your responsibility not theirs.

I am not a unique snowflake. I am not special. I'm not even alone in my suffering. I am just one of millions of people who have an anxiety disorder.

I don't have a job. I don't need a job because my parents are wealthy and I live in a condo that they own and I don't pay rent. But I'm watching my life slip by and my friends and family pass me on the road of life and I feel powerless to stop it. I want to move out of my city but my girlfriend is 38, still lives in her parents' basement, is essentially economically trapped, and I feel as though I'm her last shot at any sort of romance and that I can't break up with her because it would make me a jerk after she's helped me for so long. I don't want to be "just another guy" who is helped by a girl, then dumps her when he's feeling better, so I'm martyring myself like a suicide bomber to keep her happy. I know if were to split up that it would force myself to bite the bullet, leave town, get a job, etc., but I can't seem to force myself to do it, probably because I have low self-esteem that tells me that I'm never going to find anyone who will tolerate me and all of my flaws.

I say this with respect, this is a very sick way to view life. Your parents very much abused you, doogiet. They allowed you to grow up like this, dependent upon them. That is sick and perverted. That is as bad as being physically abused, being an alcoholic, being told you are totally worthless, etc. What you as a child interpreted from this was, "my parents don't see me as capable, smart, and don't believe in me". You internalized that and you are still behaving and thinking that way. That is total c*r*a*p. I got the same message as a child, though my parents loved me very much.

Do you find it curious that you and I exhibit the same characteristics as children who came from abusive homes? Ever wonder why? Because we experienced abuse. Duh!

Here's another word of advice. You are emotionally dependent upon your girlfriend for self esteem. Relationships don't work that way. You are in a relationship because you want to be, not because you're afraid of hurting the other person. You can't break from her because you don't think you could bear the guilt of hurting her. But, you aren't responsible for her and her emotional stability, she is. That's the way it works. I can tell you from experience that you are in a sick relationship, doogiet. Dependency is rampant in so many areas of your life.

What I have said is hard stuff to realize, I know. IT was hard for me. But you've started the process of recovery because you are starting to realize that the emotional pain from living this way is worse than taking the risks of growing up and dealing with the pain from that. That's the bottom line. The pain is pushing you in the right direction. All of this is very painful, I know. But, the good news is that you know the truth and you can begin, one day at a time, to develop independence emotionally and financially, one decision at a time. I was about your age when the pain began to push me to find my own answers for my life. It does get a lot better once we begin to grow up.

Here's another post I made some time ago. It's an excerpt out of a chapter of a book on depression called "The Freedom From Depression Workbook" by Dr. Les Carter and Dr. Frank Minirth. It's what rung my bell on what happened to me growing up and how I needed to chart a new course for me. The good news is that you are a lot younger and have a lot of years left.

[Don57]

INADEQUACY FEELINGS SETTLE IN

Here’s one thing that I see with myself and others on this forum. For whatever reason, in our first 18 years of life we didn’t learn how to deal with our emotions and thoughts effectively. The book ( "The Freedom From Depression Workbook" by Dr. Les Carter and Dr. Frank MInirth) says that most depressed people did not learn in their childhood years the intricacies involved in emotional management. Just as they needed someone to teach them to read or to ride a bicycle, they needed someone to patiently guide them through the complications of emotional experience. Consider for a moment some examples of the many issues children need to be trained to manage:

How to respond confidently to another person’s statements of rejection
When to be forgiving of another person’s insensitivities
How to express their frustrations clearly while also being respectful of others’ feelings. How to accept personal failures without unnecessary guilt
How to establish boundaries without also seeming rejecting or rigid
How to establish a responsible, loving rapport with an individual of the opposite gender
How to let qualities like contentment and peacefulness be a natural par tof their personalilities
How to avoid the pitfalls of pride
How to find a balance between the desire to have peer approval and theneed to be independently secure
How to manage the feelings of insecurity that are a natural par to being a kid

This list could be much longer, but you get the point. Many elements necessary for successful relating need to be introduced to a person in the first eighteen years of life. A task for the parents is to consistently guide the growing child through these issues, encouraging introspection, helping the child to develop a strong discerning mind.

In both childhood and adulthood, most depressed people can recall a familiar trend of being discouraged from developing a lasting feeling of adequacy. When an emotion is expressed or if there is a personal problem to be resolved, they are told what to do. Does this sound familiar to anyone? It hits home with me. They are offered advice, often from well-intentioned persons, but they are not allowed to struggle with their own opinions. They are not encouraged to look inwardly for strength and direction.

In times, then, when that inner strength needs to be utilized the most, there is little “know how” regarding the intricacies of emotional management. The result is a sense of emotional incompetence that sets the stage for depression. I would add here that there is an overwhelming sense of inadequacy and feeling lost.

Can you relate? What experiences have you had in which you were told what to do without necessarily finding your own solution? I know for myself that once I got into this mode of thinking and behaving, it’s the way I looked for answers to my problems. I asked others advice, not knowing that it should come from within me. When I began doing well with the Stress program was ;when I was looking to no one for help but the tapes and the workbook. No other input. This is what works for me, seeking my own solutions, perhaps with the aid of a book, or program. It leaves it up to you to find your own solutions to how to address the problems you are having. We begin to develop our problem solving skills for our problems which we didn’t learn to develop growing up.

When you are not allowed to explore deeply your own ideas or philosophies, you can eventually conclude that the solutions to your problems are out of reach. You can even feel paralyzed in your response to unwanted experiences. Boy, can I relate to that last statement! When the number or intensity of those experiences is at an overload you can collapse in depression.

Now here comes the good part. But let’s hold on to hope. You can break the cycle of emotional incompetence by developing contemplative thinking. You can learn that your feelings of inadequacy do not have to be permanently entrenched. You can commit to figuring out your problems one by one until you forge a direction in life choices that generally leads you toward healthy emotional and relational responses.

Our problem is not one of incompetence but of lack of insight, awareness, and application. Gee, that’s exactly what the StressCenter.com program has given me! Our ability to change, then, is directly proportional to our willingness to see ourselves as competent persons who can successfully address our needs. It goes on to say that as we begin to act upon our sense of competence, we will adjust in another major area: our tendency toward dependencies.

Breaking Dependency’s Hold

I still see this in myself and I see it in many others on this forum. When you consider the word dependency, what comes to mind may be a stereotyped image of a weak, wishy-washy person who waits for others’ handouts just to survive. But, this trait is by no means so one-dimensional. For the purpose of understanding your emotions, the says that we can describe dependency as the tendency to allow our inner stability to be determined by external circumstances.

Perhaps you can recall a recent occasion when you said: “It’s hard to have a good outlook on life when people are treating me so badly,” or “I was having a perfectly good day until…” If so, you have been caught in the web of dependency. You have assumed you can feel content or pleasant or secure only after circumstances give you what you want.

Dependency is not always abnormal, nor is it necessarily wrong. Each personality is wired to respond positively to affirming input or negatively to rejecting input. So dependency per se is not a problem to be rid of. It is excessive dependency that keeps a person feeling inadequate, creating an inclination toward depression.

How closely do your feelings of depression reflect a tendency to let your mood be dictated by your circumstances? To get an idea, check the following statements that apply to you:
I feel acceptable only when I get large doses of affirmation from others.
I cringe when I sense rejection is forthcoming.
When I’m around confident people I repeatedly with I could be more that way.
I have noticed over the past months and years that I am cynical toward people even before they give me a reason to feel that way
Lately, I have been more guarded about the things I will reveal about myself
Criticism from others can send me into an emotional tailspin
I want more rewarding relationships, but I’m beginning to conclude they don’t exist
Sometimes I alter my words to suit the person I am with
I become easily embarrassed or shy when my shortcomings are discovered
I find myself waiting for someone to come along and rescue me from my misery

I had originally checked 8 of these. Each of these statements implies a tendency to let your mood be determined by something outside yourself. If you checked five or more statements, you are probably so intent on getting your emotional stability from unpredictable sources that you are virtually asking to be depressed. Other people cannot read our minds to know how to make us feel good about ourselves and even if they could, they would not necessarily be inclined to fix our problems.

When you woke up this morning you probably did not sit on the side of the bed thinking, “I’m going to hand over my emotional stability to everyone else in my life today.” In other words, dependency is not typically a conscious plan. Yet, dependency can be so habitual that it can occur without your immediate conscious awareness. This is because this trait is natural to every human from earliest life, and it tends to remain as a powerful, even destructive, force in life until you are trained to maintain it in proper perspective.

Proverbs 4:13 “Hold on to instruction, do not let it go; guard it well, for it is your life. Proverbs 4:22,23 “for they are life to those who find them and health to a man’s whole body. Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life.”

On theday you were born your dependency was displayed. As soon as you entered the world you cried to be held and affirmed. When you sensed a comforting message, you became calm. If you were ignored, you screamed, demanding nurturing attention. Your emotional stability was almost completely dictated by your surroundings. You were that dependent.

As the months and years passed, you became more sophisticated in managing your responses to your world, yet you continued in your craving for affirmation. Just as you did on that first day of life, you wanted to consistently hear “You can feel safe because I’m here to love you and protect you.” As you received proper doses of personal confirmation, your emotions stabilized. But in affirmation’s absence you struggled to find your inner value. Most depression sufferers look upon the past and recall that those inborn cravings for affirmation were lacking in one or more major relationships. Perhaps a parent was condescending or found it hard to express love, or perhaps you felt estranged from a spouse or a brother or a work associate. In your mind you had ongoing questions regarding your standing with others to the extent that you increasingly felt defeated and inadequate.

Part of your recovery from depression will be tied to your ability to restructure your habits regarding dependency. Know that you had a God given worth on the day you were born, and though it would have been appropriate for your significant people to have communicated that worth to you, if they failed to do so it does not make the fact of your worth any less true. Your adequacy is not given to you by fallible humans, though you may wish they could somehow magically bestow it upon you. Adequacy comes from God Himself. He gave you reasoning, free will, competence. It is your privilege to use it as you choose, and it does not have to hinge on others’ recognition of it.

Hold on to the fact that others are not responsible for making you feel secure. Yes, it is pleasing and helpful when others choose to affirm you, but don’t ascribe to others a godlike power to dictate whether you can be emotionally stable or mentally optimistic today.

Your feelings of inadequacy are usually caused when you fail to take the reins for your own actions, letting your mood be determined by others. That does not have to be. By developing an awareness of your unique vulnerable moments, and by determining who you can be in response to those circumstances, you can set into motions some realistic goals for coping.

What are some of your recurring circumstances that tend to create troubled emotions for you? (For instance, “My spouse quickly invalidates me when I have a point to make.”) List up to five.

Now go back through each of the circumstances you just cited and determine a reasonable healthy response to each of those circumstances.

Depression is fed by a sit-and-wait approach to life. Wait for others to tell you you’re okay. Wait for others to give you permission to be decisive. Wait for others to be respectful before you can tame your frustrations. But as you break your depressive tendencies, you will make decisions and build behavioral habits around your growing belief that you have adequacy to meet the challenges of trying circumstances. You no longer have to feel like a yo-yo on the end of someone else’s string, but you can stake your own beliefs and determine how you will translate those beliefs into change one circumstance at a time.

[spowers]

Maybe it's because I'm younger, but I see this totally differently than what most people have said. Your parents didn't abuse you. More likely, you lacked an emotional attachment to them because they were busy, and they "made up for it" with money. Telling you you're good at something or special is not abuse. Did your parents screw up? Maybe. But how old are you? It's time for you to be the adult and stop using panic attacks/depression as an excuse to live like an adolescent. Get a job. Break up with the girlfriend who is an emotional drag on you. Make an adult decision.

[Don57]

spowers,

WE all see it from our own life experience. My parents loved me and did the very best they knew how for me. There was no intent to abuse. But, the results were the same. Over protection, even if done out of love, is abuse. It produces the very same effects and communicates to the child that they have little worth.

When "parents screw up" whether intentially or out of ignorance, there are painful consequences for the child. The children are the ones who bear all the burden for the parents' mistakes. Some of these children, when grown up, struggle in life, not understanding what happened to them. Yet, society in general has little compassion for such people. That has been my experience and what I see in your post as well.

Take a male wolf from the wild when he is a pup and raise him as a pet. Make him totally dependent upon you for food, for affection, etc. Then when he is grown, take him back to the wild and release him to survive on his own. His chances are very poor. Why? he didn't have the proper parental guidance when young. His failure is the direct result of how he grew up. The pup is not to blame. Get my drift?

You tell me, what built in mechanism suddenly kicks in at age 18 or 21 to "make" us emotionally mature if we didn't learn it growing up? It doesn't exist. What you are saying is, "by now you 'should' have learned how to be an adult, but you haven't. You have failed and are unworthy of respect or love". All I can say is, get out of my life, dude. I don't need your destructive not constructive criticism.

You are right. It's all up to us to figure it all out. But, anxiety and depression are a result of the mistakes, not an excuse. I find your post very insulting, uncompassionate, judgmental, and ignorant.

[BTTRFLY]

I find your post very insulting, uncompassionate, judgmental, and ignorant.

I've got to say Don, this surprises me. You posted some really long and opinionated things on here, telling Doogie his parents "abused him" in a "sick and perverted" way, making assumptions about his upbringing, his beliefs, etc., and then you are insulted by someone else's point of view? That is not like you! It seems like this particular thread has hit a nerve for you...are you posting for Doogie or yourself?

[spowers]

don57,

First of all "dude" I'm not a guy.
The results may be the same, but that does not make it abuse. This is offensive to people who were actually abused. How is telling a child they are special and good at things communicating that the child has little worth?
I never said there was a built in mechanism that "makes" people emotionally mature, but by your 30's, yeah, it's time to stop blaming Mommy and Daddy and take responsibility for your actions. Unless you're dead, you haven't yet failed at anything, and have time to change. The program isn't about blaming people for your problems, it's about self-improvement.
Everyone is worthy of respect and love. There's no hidden meaning behind anything I write, if I wanted to say someone was worthless, that's exactly what I would say. However, I didn't say that. I am saying be productive. And now I'm saying this specifically to you: name calling is counter-productive.

[Admin_1]

Let's all step back, take a deep breath, then watch what we say or don't say on this thread.

Any arguing will lead to it being locked.

Admin

[doogiet]

Admin: please don't lock this thread, I'm starting to feel good about myself.

I think what Don was trying to say is that my parents didn't abuse me (the word "abuse" is probably a little strong), but there were certainly some very poor decisions along the way. I also think his metaphor about the wolf pup is exactly what happened to me. You can't expect to suddenly have what it takes to survive on your own when you reach a certain age. If you locked a child in a Skinner Box and then said, "Okay, he's 18, he'll be able to look after himself now," we all know that wouldn't be true.

My parents used money to solve most of their child-raising problems, and when things didn't go right for their children, they pulled strings or interfered. When my sister failed her math class in high school, my father privately spoke with the teacher to change her grade. When my friends suggested a road trip, my parents would pay for an airline ticket for me. At the time I didn't realize that I was missing out on independence-gaining experience, I just went along with it because they were older and my father's a doctor. Doctors must be right, right?

I was very badly bullied in high school by a girl (I had panic attacks and would go home crying), and when I finally had had enough and told her off, I was so thrilled with myself that I proudly told my parents what I had done. Guess what? They told me to go back and apologize. That I had crossed a social line, that I had sunk to her level, that I was no better than she was. So I did and the bullying continued. But they must be right, right? I mean, they're parents and they're older and they wouldn't steer me wrong. And my father's a doctor.

My girlfriend told me a few weeks ago that I talk in my sleep, and how at one point I apparently said, "Well, I'll just have to date other women, then." I think that might be a sign...

Anyway, I told her yesterday that I wanted some time to be alone, to think things through. I'm telling myself that I'm not a terrible person for wanting to be alone, for wanting to sort things out. In the past, I would have just beat myself up and told myself that I was ruining my life, that I was stupid, dumb, etc. Now I'm telling myself I'm in a transitory stage.

My shrink would tell me I need to let my new personality harden (like it's out of a mold) so I don't just fall back into my old habits and behaviors, so I might need some support from you guys. I'm resisting the urge to call her and tell her it was all a mistake, when I finally feel free and that a burden has been lifted from me.