minnchad,
whatyou said was not fair to the anyone that you spoke about. there are people of every color that are poor. so do not take it for granted that its only blacks that are poor..i think that you owe an apology to the people that you might have offended and know that some have tried to come out of the ditch but its people like you that keep kicking them back in..i hope that this helps you know how others feel..
in fact there was people on there singing a christain song and right after a comedian that was cursing..but they are above all this because they are famous.take care and be blessed.
don
its not the color of a mans skin but what inside his heart. that is why i prayed that GOD would help us find a church that was like that and he did.i hope that you are in the program and it helps you.thanks.
Guilt about Donation
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Guest
D,
I think you are a bigot in your own way by trying to dictate what others opinions should be.
That's a very fascist attitude that you have towards my opinion. I believe many people have been conditioned to enable poverty among Africans in particular, and while I may have pointed them out, it was in no way racist.
I think if you re-read my post and thought about it carefully, you might reconsider your position.
Enlightened,
I wasn't talking about Katrina, or even America for that matter.
You do bring up an interesting point though. I didn't know that more Caucasian people were affected by that hurricane than black people. Thank you for bringing that up. By the news coverage, I assumed that it was only blacks that were affected.
I think you are a bigot in your own way by trying to dictate what others opinions should be.
That's a very fascist attitude that you have towards my opinion. I believe many people have been conditioned to enable poverty among Africans in particular, and while I may have pointed them out, it was in no way racist.
I think if you re-read my post and thought about it carefully, you might reconsider your position.
Enlightened,
I wasn't talking about Katrina, or even America for that matter.
You do bring up an interesting point though. I didn't know that more Caucasian people were affected by that hurricane than black people. Thank you for bringing that up. By the news coverage, I assumed that it was only blacks that were affected.
Chad -
Unfortunately we don't know whether money (or anything else for that matter) that we give to ANY cause enables a person or group of people or provides a way to help them out of that situation. I personally, have spent way too much time myself being sekptical and negative and critical...if my conscience leads me to give to a cause then I will give with the best hope and faith that I will not be enabling, but rather assisting.
I am just curious - and not being critical of your comments at all - how (if at all) would you propose to help someone in need? The segment on the show in Appalachia (in Clay Co. KY) particularly touched me...but I'd open this up to any location in any country. Should we help...and if so...how? I'm very interested in hearing your opinion on this matter as it would help me better understand your previous post.
Thanks,
Dawn
Unfortunately we don't know whether money (or anything else for that matter) that we give to ANY cause enables a person or group of people or provides a way to help them out of that situation. I personally, have spent way too much time myself being sekptical and negative and critical...if my conscience leads me to give to a cause then I will give with the best hope and faith that I will not be enabling, but rather assisting.
I am just curious - and not being critical of your comments at all - how (if at all) would you propose to help someone in need? The segment on the show in Appalachia (in Clay Co. KY) particularly touched me...but I'd open this up to any location in any country. Should we help...and if so...how? I'm very interested in hearing your opinion on this matter as it would help me better understand your previous post.
Thanks,
Dawn
Mom,
Thank you for not replying with a knee jerk reaction!
Based on the the current view of things, I'm actually surprised by your proportionally reactive post.
The reason I assumed black Africans is because that's what I've seen in the past, but onto my reply.
I could have different replies based on a variety of situations. I wouldn't be so close minded as to try and give one solution for all examples of poverty. That wouldn't be fair.
My view on the African problem is only on the African problem. Yes, it is the black Africans that the world has enabled for irresponsibility by the continuing generosity towards them. Some may call it 'outreach', but after so many years, so many billions of dollars, so many tons of food, so much education, and so much continued guidance, it becomes a difficult decision.
Should the world as a whole continue to feed those who are taking a mile for every inch given and overpopulating their own, and other peoples countries, because of it?
Let's look at another example besides blacks.
Let's take those poor communities in remote parts of the USA. It could even include the one in KY.
They are white, yet still poor. They're living in conditions that would be difficult for most people in the civilized parts of the world.
The difference I know between them and some other groups is that they aren't being helped by the United Nations and most of the American media doesn't give them the time of day.
Since I believe in donating to the people who need the most help, I would personally donate to the poor people in KY or any other people who are being ignored by television.
One more quick example. Let's take Russia for instance. They are poor as well, yet I don't see any groups lining up to give them assistance, and that most certainly includes well off African American groups.
So go ahead and say what you will about me or my posts, but as a person, I believe in impartial treatment, unfortunately, it's simply not a rule that's being followed in this day and age.
If anyone reading has made it this far without being reactionary, you're doing well.
I believe I have valid points and I will not back away from what I believe is fair!
Thank you for not replying with a knee jerk reaction!
Based on the the current view of things, I'm actually surprised by your proportionally reactive post.
The reason I assumed black Africans is because that's what I've seen in the past, but onto my reply.
I could have different replies based on a variety of situations. I wouldn't be so close minded as to try and give one solution for all examples of poverty. That wouldn't be fair.
My view on the African problem is only on the African problem. Yes, it is the black Africans that the world has enabled for irresponsibility by the continuing generosity towards them. Some may call it 'outreach', but after so many years, so many billions of dollars, so many tons of food, so much education, and so much continued guidance, it becomes a difficult decision.
Should the world as a whole continue to feed those who are taking a mile for every inch given and overpopulating their own, and other peoples countries, because of it?
Let's look at another example besides blacks.
Let's take those poor communities in remote parts of the USA. It could even include the one in KY.
They are white, yet still poor. They're living in conditions that would be difficult for most people in the civilized parts of the world.
The difference I know between them and some other groups is that they aren't being helped by the United Nations and most of the American media doesn't give them the time of day.
Since I believe in donating to the people who need the most help, I would personally donate to the poor people in KY or any other people who are being ignored by television.
One more quick example. Let's take Russia for instance. They are poor as well, yet I don't see any groups lining up to give them assistance, and that most certainly includes well off African American groups.
So go ahead and say what you will about me or my posts, but as a person, I believe in impartial treatment, unfortunately, it's simply not a rule that's being followed in this day and age.
If anyone reading has made it this far without being reactionary, you're doing well.
I believe I have valid points and I will not back away from what I believe is fair!
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Guest
Chad, I appreciate your comments and your responding to my questions.
I do see where you are coming from and actually I agree on some levels with some of the things you said. Not the least of which was that the media had totally ignored (or mostly ignored) the abject poverty in areas like Appalachia (KY and other affected areas in that region) and I think it's deplorable.
It can be easy to get a jaded view on donations as well. I worked personally with a group to try and facilitate a donation of used school desks which were stacked in a warehouse collecting dust to a school in the KY area. We finally reached what I thought was a good agreement, when the donor group decided it was not in their best interest to do this. What in the...? So the desks sat in the warehouse until they were THROWN away. Yep...
I shared that to say that the liberal "dosing of contributions" can give rise to doubt, frustration, and, well let's face it, corruption, but also the other side of the coin - the NOT giving...can cause negative problems and feelings as well.
I just don't believe that we need to let THAT govern our empathy. And I see that you are NOT unsympathetic...and you do make some valid points.
In my opinion, the best thing to do is if you see a need...and it is viable...and you can...meet it. There were several creative ways mentioned in these posts - I'm thinking of those by Bev and SchnauzerMom particularly.
I can't know that every homeless guy I see on the street isn't a professional panhandler. So I DO wonder and second-guess giving them money. I think that makes us discerning, but I suppose it could also be seen as cynical!
There are groups working with people like in Russia, but the media is not big on talking about faith-based groups (more often than not). Heaven forbid if someone gets a Bible with the food. Or has prayer after building a new house!
The organization that I work for has a satellite agricultural program that raises goats and seed for poor areas in South America, Africa, and the Caribbean - primarily, but there are other places as well. Anyhow - the goats are supposed to provide milk and to breed and eventually have a sustainable "crop" for meat and milk purposes...no matter what is said or taught though - the goats generally don't make it "on location" longer than the next meal. So...I get what you are saying. People have to have the desire to not just take hand-outs, but to improve their lives...and work for the improvement with the donors, quite often!
Thanks for sharing your perspective, I hope you didn't mind me sharing mine as well. I just think if we all did SOMETHING every day for someone else (call me naive or utopian-minded...whatever!
) our world would be a better place...in general.
Blessings,
Dawn
I do see where you are coming from and actually I agree on some levels with some of the things you said. Not the least of which was that the media had totally ignored (or mostly ignored) the abject poverty in areas like Appalachia (KY and other affected areas in that region) and I think it's deplorable.
It can be easy to get a jaded view on donations as well. I worked personally with a group to try and facilitate a donation of used school desks which were stacked in a warehouse collecting dust to a school in the KY area. We finally reached what I thought was a good agreement, when the donor group decided it was not in their best interest to do this. What in the...? So the desks sat in the warehouse until they were THROWN away. Yep...
I shared that to say that the liberal "dosing of contributions" can give rise to doubt, frustration, and, well let's face it, corruption, but also the other side of the coin - the NOT giving...can cause negative problems and feelings as well.
I just don't believe that we need to let THAT govern our empathy. And I see that you are NOT unsympathetic...and you do make some valid points.
In my opinion, the best thing to do is if you see a need...and it is viable...and you can...meet it. There were several creative ways mentioned in these posts - I'm thinking of those by Bev and SchnauzerMom particularly.
I can't know that every homeless guy I see on the street isn't a professional panhandler. So I DO wonder and second-guess giving them money. I think that makes us discerning, but I suppose it could also be seen as cynical!
There are groups working with people like in Russia, but the media is not big on talking about faith-based groups (more often than not). Heaven forbid if someone gets a Bible with the food. Or has prayer after building a new house!
The organization that I work for has a satellite agricultural program that raises goats and seed for poor areas in South America, Africa, and the Caribbean - primarily, but there are other places as well. Anyhow - the goats are supposed to provide milk and to breed and eventually have a sustainable "crop" for meat and milk purposes...no matter what is said or taught though - the goats generally don't make it "on location" longer than the next meal. So...I get what you are saying. People have to have the desire to not just take hand-outs, but to improve their lives...and work for the improvement with the donors, quite often!
Thanks for sharing your perspective, I hope you didn't mind me sharing mine as well. I just think if we all did SOMETHING every day for someone else (call me naive or utopian-minded...whatever!
) our world would be a better place...in general. Blessings,
Dawn
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Guest
Wow Chad ---
I still think that a little due diligence behind your "beliefs" might help you.
There are poor people in EVERY race... why the focus on "black Africans"?
I have seen ministry programs soliciting donations for poor Russians, poor Phillipinos, poor Mexicans, poor Indians, etc., etc., (i.e. Feed the Children and Life today) and I have given to these causes...
Have you studied American History or African History from a holistic point of view?
Do you understand that much of African wealth in its rich resources of gold, diamonds, oil, and other precious stones have been seized/stolen and continue to be stolen by various other nations? Maybe this may have contributed to the poverty level in Africa...
To state that all "black Africans" are recipients of handouts and that the whole population of "black Africans" are "irresponsibl[e]" is very far from the truth...
There are many established cities and business owners and government officials in Africa from the "black African" population....
So I really do not get your logic here...
it is a bit skewed...
Where the confusion comes in is that the subject referenced a program aired on American Idol... from this your statements about "black Africans" would imply African Americans...
In reference to your example of "whites, yet still poor ... in KY" they also have access to welfare and if they are at a particular income, they probably do receive welfare... The government does not give out special preferential treatment to African Americans nor discriminate against poor whites in KY...
With reference to American Welfare statistics:
<A HREF="http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfareblack.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfareblack.htm</A>
Everyone has the ability to apply for welfare there is no bias...
With reference to African Americans, there are numerous billionare and multi-millionare African American entrepreneurs in various sectors of business that continue to contribute to society. In addition, there are many African Americans who are gainfully employed. They are very responsible...
No one gets preferential treatment unless the government is trying to correct an national error in an effort to remedy the 'ill of society' (i.e. Japanese-Americans received reparations for the bad treatment they received during World War II, and All Minorities (non-white) in America have Affirmative Action in certain places where they have been disenfranchised... history plays a key role in understanding how these types of remedies are issued)
I still think that a little due diligence behind your "beliefs" might help you.
There are poor people in EVERY race... why the focus on "black Africans"?
I have seen ministry programs soliciting donations for poor Russians, poor Phillipinos, poor Mexicans, poor Indians, etc., etc., (i.e. Feed the Children and Life today) and I have given to these causes...
Have you studied American History or African History from a holistic point of view?
Do you understand that much of African wealth in its rich resources of gold, diamonds, oil, and other precious stones have been seized/stolen and continue to be stolen by various other nations? Maybe this may have contributed to the poverty level in Africa...
To state that all "black Africans" are recipients of handouts and that the whole population of "black Africans" are "irresponsibl[e]" is very far from the truth...
There are many established cities and business owners and government officials in Africa from the "black African" population....
So I really do not get your logic here...
it is a bit skewed...
Where the confusion comes in is that the subject referenced a program aired on American Idol... from this your statements about "black Africans" would imply African Americans...
In reference to your example of "whites, yet still poor ... in KY" they also have access to welfare and if they are at a particular income, they probably do receive welfare... The government does not give out special preferential treatment to African Americans nor discriminate against poor whites in KY...
With reference to American Welfare statistics:
<A HREF="http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfareblack.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfareblack.htm</A>
Everyone has the ability to apply for welfare there is no bias...
With reference to African Americans, there are numerous billionare and multi-millionare African American entrepreneurs in various sectors of business that continue to contribute to society. In addition, there are many African Americans who are gainfully employed. They are very responsible...
No one gets preferential treatment unless the government is trying to correct an national error in an effort to remedy the 'ill of society' (i.e. Japanese-Americans received reparations for the bad treatment they received during World War II, and All Minorities (non-white) in America have Affirmative Action in certain places where they have been disenfranchised... history plays a key role in understanding how these types of remedies are issued)
Last edited by Enlightened on Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Guest
Well, this sounds very reminiscent of Ebeneezer Scrooge: "And if they would rather die, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population." Are you suggesting we should just let them die?Should the world as a whole continue to feed those who are taking a mile for every inch given and overpopulating their own, and other peoples countries, because of it?
There are good organizations involved in parts of Africa, as Prv31mom has said, who are teaching the Africans how to fish, not just giving them fish, through teaching about good hygiene, contraception, how to raise animals and crops for food, getting their children educated through the support of caring people, etc. I was lightly involved with one for about 6 years, most recently 2005. I find your comment and attitude pretty harsh and crass. Perhaps there are other ways to use the funds better, but allowing someone to die is not an acceptable solution for me.
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Guest
Some very good points you bring up Minn. I agree on many levels with alot of what your saying. Primarily in Africa. Why are all these babies being born only to be abandoned? Where is the birth control to stop it from happening? I have 2 children and I know that financially I could not provide better for more so I stop having them. Now I totally understand in oops babies it can happen when you dont expect it but by the millions? I find that hard to believe.
I do think these children that have been born are not to be held responsible for thier parents ignorant actions and do need our support and education to NOT do the same thing.
I am also a very strong believer in caring for our own....in this I mean why are our children suffering here in America? In the case of Katrina? Why are we still having people that are displaced? What the heck is that? Where was all the billions from other countries to help us when we were hit in 911? We open our pockets to all the other countries and our very own struggles.
Now Ive gone off an a tangent but this is a hot topic to me.
I am all for helping the suffering all around the board....but Minn you do offer some very interesting facts. Good for you stepping out of the box to offer you opinions.
Dodger
I do think these children that have been born are not to be held responsible for thier parents ignorant actions and do need our support and education to NOT do the same thing.
I am also a very strong believer in caring for our own....in this I mean why are our children suffering here in America? In the case of Katrina? Why are we still having people that are displaced? What the heck is that? Where was all the billions from other countries to help us when we were hit in 911? We open our pockets to all the other countries and our very own struggles.
Now Ive gone off an a tangent but this is a hot topic to me.
I am all for helping the suffering all around the board....but Minn you do offer some very interesting facts. Good for you stepping out of the box to offer you opinions.
Dodger