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oh yah! satan even had me convinced at one point that my panic attacks were a punishnment from God because I was so horrible! Talk about fear! God isn't like that! 2 tim. 1:7

Hi Philly,

I think I gave a very thorough account supporting the Calvinist view. I am more interested in helping you over come your fears than engage in some sport or debate over the merits of works based faith or once saved always saved philosophies.

I refuse to crucify Jesus over and over on account of my sins. It is sufficient that he did this once and for all just as He stated in His last words: "It is done!"

Good works are driven by gifts of the Spirit. They are not sinful. It is okay to be works driven, so long as the person(s) understand(s) that it was the sacrifice that Jesus suffered for us that paid the ransom for our sins. Christ is the/our fulfillment of the Law.

In the book of Hebrews, it is made clear exactly who and what Jesus represents perhaps it would do you a great deal of good to study this Epistle.

Another good reading and example is that of Mary and Martha found here:

http://www.holybible.com/resou...itle=Luke&Chapter=10

scroll down to verse 38-42. Here we find a beautiful example on the concept of works versus being still and waiting on the lord. Jesus clearly tells us which is better.

I want you and others to understand that I do not consider this lightly nor as a sport. My sole effort is geared toward helping you and others. No more and no less. I am sure this is also what drives my friend Gil.

Gil don't be like Martha, I am just choosing the good part as Mary has shown us. I am sitting at the Lord's feet, silently and intently listening to what my Lord has to say, and the Lord is encouraging you too, just as He did with Martha. Be not troubled. He is in Control.

Grammie, I can totally relate. I will pm you with my witness. I am sure you are going to love it. I have the sense you have gone through the same thing or at least something very similar to what I have.

Originally posted by Gman5256:
Hi all,

Gil, I beg to differ with you. We will just have to agree to disagree. Once saved always saved has been a long standing debate within the body of Christ. I will grant you to your choice of performance or works. I know that I am saved, and unless my sin be against the Holy Spirit, I shall remain His.

You cite your understanding of a few parables and some other citations, and that's all good. I want to say that Jesus spoke in these parables, because for the people of that day his message was clearly understood.

He is the Good Shepherd. He knows His sheep know Him and His sheep His voice. Why do you think the account of the lost sheep (a saved person) means so much that he would leave His flock, and pursue the lost lamb until He finds it or them, and then rejoice when he returns the lamb/sheep (saved person) to the flock?

Notice, The Shepherd sought out the lamb/sheep. Notice, The shepherd rejoices as He is carrying His formerly lost lamb/sheep. What the parable doesn't tell us, but the people of that day understood, is that the Shepherd loves His Lambs, and then breaks the lambs 2 front legs.

The Shepherd then carried that lamb wherever He went, as he cared for the lamb, feeding, grooming, and keep the lamb as close to His heart as possible. Notice, what does the lamb have to do? Not a thing! The lamb is being trained to remain as close to the Shepherd as possible and to be still and know that He is God! These are not mere coincidences, but from the words and parable stories spoken by our Lord and Savior.

I am a lamb who is broken, but I am also that same lamb, being held very closely to our Lord's breast. We are heart to heart. I would say that is a very good place. The other parable account that is very similar to this is the story of the prodigal son. We are these prodigal children that leave and lead a sinful life. Does the father reject his prodigal son? No, He is joyous and throws a huge celebration.

Everyone is joyous and happy for the Father and child reunion. Everyone is joyous; that is, except for the prodigal child's brother. Why is that? Could it be because of the envy he felt for the reception of his wayward and sinful brother?

In my view, you are saved. Jesus paid the price of redeeming you, once and for all, and for all that repent, get baptized, and accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

In Paul's Epistle to the community of Colossians, Paul spoke out against exactly what so many do by adding to the requirements of Salvation, as shown in Chapter 2 verses 4-9. Paul is speaking of the aesthetics they were practicing. We do not have to beat ourselves nor allow anyone else to beat or punish us to make ourselves or us worthy of salvation. That price was paid once and for all by our Lord and Savior.

The good works you may do, serve to show the you are the fruit of the branch that produced you. The Spirit of the Good Shepherd, will hold you close to his heart. The Spirit will place the commandments on your heart. The Spirit you nurture you to learn, grow and produce good fruit. The Spirit will lead you to His word and feed you. It is the Spirit working within you that is charged to help you in all things.

So there you have it, come as the prodigal child so that the Father will rejoice and leave everyone SPEECHLESS at His Loving kindness and Mercy

There is so much more I could say on this subject, but I think I made my position clear.

Philly you are just a lost lamb and trying to find your way back. Have no fear, the Good Shepherd is on His way to rescue you from your fears, and He will carry you close to His breast and His heart to return joyously with you and or receive you as His prodigal child. Don't let fear or not understanding as the words to the song, but just accept it.

Believe the unbelievable
Receive the inconceivable
And see beyond my wildest imagination
Lord, I come with great expectations
(full lyrics: http://www.klove.com/lyrics/lyrics.asp?241)

It's enough to leave us all SPEECHLESS.

No amount of legalistic gymnastics can change this simple understanding of these Spiritual truths; otherwise, they the demean the sacrifice already made for us by Yeshua-Jeus.

Sorry if I got carry away, but it is out of love that I pass this understanding along not mean spiritedness for God knows my heart. It is a delicate subject that I and the Apostle Paul had to wrestle with. Paul did it in Love and so have I.

TC and God Bless all of you.

Hello Gman5256,

I'm responding to what you have said to clarify things and not to argue. I can appreciate what you said about agreeing to disagree, but I do not understand how you can refer to me as someone who believes that my salvation is depended upon the merits of my performance or works or that I was using "legalistic gymnastics" as you put it. There is nothing in what I said or quoted that speaks, or even suggests, any such thing. I surely to not beleive in any such thing. I do not know for sure what was going on in your mind whem you read my post. Your comments did not point out anything in specific as to what I was saying. From my perspective it seems like you had to jump to the idea of works or legalism in order to defend, or state, your idea of "once saved always saved." In other words, it appears that you expressed your pre-conceived ideas at the expense of making my post appear to be saying something that it was not saying. Just because you may beleive that the only alternative to "once saved always saved" is legalism or the earning of your salvations does not make it so. I'm not trying to sound real critical, but from my perspective you simply did not understand, or you did not really want to understand, what I was saying. I guess the bottom line for me here is not that we can't agree to disagree, but it's the idea of you disagreeing with me based on something that was perceived in your mind, but not in my mind. In other words, I think that we are on the "same page" so-to-speak as Eph. 2:8,9 where it says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

I am a little under the weather right now and running out of time, but if you would be interested I could at a later time present my understanding of the Biblical view of the the gospel.

I would like to point out a few things in your reply that seem to contradict your defense of "once saved always saved." For instance, you stated, "I know that I am saved, and unless my sin be against the Holy Spirit, I shall remain His." You are giving a reason here yourself as to why it is not once saved always saved. This next quote of yours, "I want to say that Jesus spoke in these parables, because for the people of that day his message was clearly understood," does not appear to always be the case in reference to how Jesus anwered His disciples when they asked Him why He spoke to people in parables. Jesus answered them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mystries of the kingdon of heaven, but to them it is not. For whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hearnot, neither do they inderstabd."--Mk 13:11-13. Next you say, "Why do you think the account of the lost sheep (a saved person) means so much that he would leave His flock, and pursue the lost lamb until He finds it or them." Here you are referring to the lost sheep as a saved person. How can someone be lost and saved at the same time? Jesus said, "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."--Matt. 18:11. It is clear that the lost are the ones in need of salvation, they do not already have it. This proves my point when I was explaining that John 10:28,29 was not implying "once saved always saved." Please refer back to my post. Remember how verse 29 said, "No man is able to pluck them out of my hand" The question is, how can a lost sheep still be in the hand of Jesus if He has to leave the flock and go look for it? As I stated in my post, "This is a wonderful promise, but the previous verse, verse 27, reveals a specific condition to this promise. It states, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." God's true followers are safe in His hand, but it is this hearing and following which provides immunity against being plucked away by the devil or his agents. The protection is from enemies without who seek to carry off the sheep, but not from unfaithfulness of the sheep who might choose not to follow any longer." Jesus does not desire that any of His sheep get out of His hand and the only way that this can happen is if a sheep decides to no longer hear His voice follow Him. Just as Jesus never forces salvation on anyone, He never forces anyone to stay in His hand against their will. And just like the prodigal son that you mentioned, he made his own choice to leave his father to go astray into the world and after seeing the error of his way decided to come back. And his father longingly welcomed him back just like our heavenly Father will do. Please take note that the prodigal son's father never forced him to stay and never forced him to return. One last thing that you mentioned, "The good works you may do, serve to show that you are the fruit of the branch that produced you." I agree with this idea but, I challenge you to read John 15:1-6. This idea of the vine and the branches is conditional on us abiding in Christ. Jesus says in verses 4-6, "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine: no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for witout me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Abiding in Christ is a continual relationsship and is not based on our works. Being cast into the fire and burned is symbolic of the close of probation and the return of Christ. Christ does not desire that any of us should perish, but it is up to us to decide what to do with His free gift of life eternal. Christ is longsuffering toward us and is always willing to take us back, but if we keep going on vacation from being a Christian so-to-speak (no longer abiding in Christ) we run the risk of not ever wanting to come back or find ourselves not ready and found in Christ on that last day.

I'm tired and can not longer think very straight, but as I offered earlier I could at some future point expound more on the gospel in light of the points that I have been trying to make.

Thanks for hearing me out.

May God bless you and keep you.

Hi Gil,

I copied, from your 2nd or 3rd post on this thread the following:

" ...It seems that a lot of people believe in a false security or what is referred to as "once saved always saved." The Word of God simply does not support this idea. God never says anything about interferring with our freedom to choose after we became His followers. "Christians can choose to be lost just as surely as sinners can choose to be saved. Just think, how useless would be all the hundreds of biblical warnings against apostasy if it were impossible to experience it. Why would the Spirit have led Paul, Peter, and all the others to pen such solemn threats and admonitions against eternal loss if they were in no danger of suffering it? And if it is true that the once-saved are eternally secure, surely the devil would know it. Therefore he would never waste any time on believers, knowing how impossible it would be to cause them to be lost. Yet we all know by experience that Satan works even harder to pull away the saints from following Christ. We have to conclude that salvation does not consist of a single, irrevocable commitment, whether past or present. Being saved is the experience of living Christ's own life by divine imputatuon [justification] and impartation [sanctification]. It is never a reality except in continual, dynamic relationship with Jesus, the source of eternal life. Being saved must be spoken of in all three tenses of time in order to be completely biblical. It has happened, it is happening, it will happen."--Can A Saved Man Choose To Be Lost? One text of Scripture that is used a lot in an effort to defend the once saved always saved mentality is John 10:28,29...

My big concern was that upon reading this commentary it does seem to create the wedge in differences of our 2 philosophies. But more importantly, such strident comments seem in my eyes to create even more anxiety and fear to a people on a forum loaded with people that are extremely sensitive to almost anything. My goal is not to debunk any of your philosophy of whether you are saved by works or once saved always saved, but as I read this commentary written by you, it seems unmistakable that you are clearly of the mind that works are extremely important to salvation. On the sidebar issue of whether we can be lost, I think you have to remember that man was given, by God, Free Will and the right choose what man or woman choose to do.

I will stand by the Calvinist philosophy of once saved always saved and will attempt to provide you support for this by referring you to:

http://www.carm.org/religious-...do-we-need-works-too

I had mentioned that this subject matter has been roundly debated, and it has almost since the beginning of Christianity. Thankfully, with the advent of the internet information can be obtained by the simple click of a mouse, and almost instantly you have the information at your disposal.

I have no doubt about your love for the Lord. In fact I have been you are standing. It is good, but what I realized was that very often the fire and zeal that is burning in you can sometimes serve to instill fear into the very people you are trying to reach. I learned a song whose title escapes me now, but part of the lyrics were as found here at verse 7:

http://www.holybible.com/resou...%20Timothy&Chapter=1

My goal when teaching the Gospel of the Good News, is not to create, or instill fear into the hearts of the listeners. Even when Paul admonishes his audience, He did so with and out of love, care and respect to the possibility of creating or stirring fear, and being on guard not to create more anxiety in the hearts of the believers listening to his teachings or reading his letters.

It is my hope that this post is helpful in what first triggered my response to your post (noted in the quote). It is also my genuine desire to help to alleviate concerns that may have been stimulated by the commentary you posted. After all, didn't Paul and Barnabas have a similar disagreement regarding the behavior of another believer?

http://www.holybible.com/resou...itle=Acts&Chapter=15

Perhaps, it was my own zeal and concern for the fragile sensitivities of so many here, and not any desire to pick a fight about philosophies.

I hope that you find this response satisfactory, and if not, simply email me, where we can continue this discussion privately; for it concerns me that the subject matter may only serve to upset others even if it is not our intention to do so.

Please go here: http://www.stevencurtischapman...enintherealworld.htm and listen to the heart beat of heaven.

May the Lord's Grace and Peace with with you. Amen

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PHILLYKISER:
"Here is a challenge for anyone who wants to particpate. I would like to have the scriptures that back up both ideas calvanist and armenian."

Hi PHILLYKISER,

I can appreciate the challenge and your wanting to understand things better, but if the Calvinist and Arminian views are supposed to be opposing views, how can the Scritures back up both views? I'm thinking that you must have meant the Scritures each side would use, but not necessarily, in all truth, back up their ideas. Anyway, I am not familiar with all the ins and outs of the Calvinist and Arminian points of view. Gman5256 had told you, "I think I gave a very thorough account supporting the Calvinist view." To be frank about things, I'm not interested in supporting the Calvinist view or the Arminian view. I'm interested in supporting the Biblical view. You said, "I am not so sure that if we mess up and commit a sin that he would send us to hell for it." This is a good point to bring up. It is not about going back and forth in and out of salvation like some kind of a yo-yo affect. 1 John 2:1 says, My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." The idea is to repent of our slips right away and continue on in a growing journey with Him. It's about the overall course our life is headed in and not the occasional "mess ups." It's about growing in character perfection by the grace of God. We need to daily die to self and say along with the apostle Paul, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.--Gal 2:20.

I need to go right now, please let me know if I can be of any more help.

God Bless you as you continue on your journey with Him.

And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." The idea is to repent of our slips right away and continue on in a growing journey with Him. It's about the overall course our life is headed in and not the occasional "mess ups." It's about growing in character perfection by the grace of God. We need to daily die to self and say along with the apostle Paul, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.--Gal 2:20.

Hi Gil,

I commend you for getting right to the heart of Phillykiser's concern. Very well put. God Bless you. We are not perfect but striving to grow in character to the perfection God want to instill in us through the grace and the selfless act of His Son. For His Praise and His Glory. Amen

BTW, I agree with you. It is not the philosophy of other biblical students, but the bible and the word of our living God itself that is the final authority. I am aware of the Calvinist view, but that does not mean, that I take that view over the word of God. But, I am sure that John Calvin, when he was formulating this view or opinion, fully took the word of God as his guide in forming his opinion.

Thank you Jesus, for bringing us to your perfect Love, Wisdom and Understanding. Amen!

To All,
I used to have a pamphlet written out concerning including all the scriptures in the Holy Bible on Eternal Salvation...I no longer have this booklet, but I sure can look up this scriptures, and if Philly wants me too, I will, and post them...But, in the meantime...I think that the most important thing for God's children is that we love one another; regardless, of the fact, of whom is right or wrong in this aspect...The Bible says...Love thy Lord thy God with all thing heart and Thy neighbor as thyself...I believe in once saved always saved, but, we have people whom we love dearly who comes to our church who believes in falling away...(backsliding)...I need to tell both of my brothers that I prayed for the two of them upon my bed because I don't want this one little issue to separate us...The main thing in this life is to be born again, and I am sure we can all agree upon that one.... I am sure as brothers and sisters in Christ we can look beyond this issue...We know that we will all be spending eternity together in Heaven, and that is the main thing...Right???? I was the first to reply to Philly, because I knew Philly needed some answers...I had no idea that this would get so far out of hand...Philly...just want you to know that I also prayed that the Good Lord would give you knowledge and wisdom on this matter, and would help you in this present time of distress...God Bless You All Is My Prayer....

I appreciate all of your feed back in these areas from everybody. I guess what I really need to find out is if this is God speaking to me or if it is my anxiety. Let me tell you the story as to why I am feeling the way I am feeling. 3 years ago I had a huge breakdown in my car while I was traveling I was dealing with stress and anxiety and did not know how to get over it. I felt like a voice told me to get rid of my Bow at the time and I disreguarded as anxiety and went on with life. Well here I am 3 years later wondering if that was God and I feel like I may be putting it in front of him because I did not get rid of it. Now everything I have been thinking of seems to me like God does not want me to do or have, and it really is driving me crazy. How do we know what his voice sounds like I have heard that it can use guilt or it is supposed to be a positive uplifting voice. I am soo confused. The main thing is I DO NOT WANT TO GIVE IN TO ANXIETY if thats what these guilty feelings are. If it is God then I want to make sure I am following him and not holding on to anything in this life. I feel like I would be better off to get rid of everything, but it just seems like it is crazy and from anxiety. I am thankful for all of you guys because I know I will get over this in time. I know my aim is to please God and to live for him, I just wish I had answers to some things in this life.

Oh..Philly...I got chills just reading this...Believe me...Jesus has a "small still voice," not some harsh demanding voice...I have heard his voice, and the times I heard it...It was a extremely soft voice...I remember my son asking me if he could go visit a friend when he was younger..I said only if there is not a motorcycle over there...He replied by say that the motorcycle was at another friend's house...So, I allowed him to go...I was cooking dinner, when I heard this soft still voice speak, and this voice questioned me...Would you rather your son the law got your son on the motorcycle or he got killed???? I instantly replied...Lord, thou knowest!!!! As soon as I replied to this small, gentle voice, my telephone rang...It was a state trooper informing me that my son was stopped on a motorcycle, and I needed to come and pick him up...

Also, once I prayed a really long time for my husband...he had gotten himself into a predicament, and I was petrified...As I was making our bed, the same small still voice spoke to me, and said, "Be still and know that I am God!" That situation worked itself out...

So, don't believe any loud voice in your head..That is just a negative thought...Our Jesus is full of love and compassion, and He has the kindest, stillest voice...It is soooo hard to describe, unless you hear His voice for yourself...It fills you up peace...I would love to hear His voice every day all day long...

Please, I beg you to believe what I am telling you...One day in Heaven, we may have this conversation again, and I am sure Jesus will smile.....May God Bless You In Every Area of your Life is my Prayer....

Philly...I know I made a few mistakes in typing...I just couldn't get it out fast enough...So, forgive me for my typing errors...I am here to tell you that Jesus has the most calming, still voice, and that voice fills you with the uttermost peace...It is full of love....
I am so thankful that I have heard His voice...I get chills just writing this...now, I can tell you from my own personal experience that that voice was not our God...I thank God for this...and, I know for sure God wants you to live a joyful, happy, productive, fulfilled life...He said He knew our every thought from afar off...Can you believe the Bible says..That there is a book of remembrance of everyone who thought on his name...God is love...Remember that always...Full of love and compassion and mercy...He said that His mercy endureth forever, even forever and ever....I do believe that God wants us to acknowledge Him, and to put Him first in our lives, but, He also wants us to be happy....Would you deny your child of clean pleasures in this life??? Or would you want your child to be happy??? Ask yourself these questions...Remember God loves us more than we love our own children, and that is hard to imagine...You are in the Hands of A Loving, Caring, Passionate God....Never-ever forget this...May God Bless You Is My Prayer...