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I'm agnostic and ive been happy with that for YEARS. Let me clear up what "agnostic" means to me.

It's when you are respectful of all religious views but are not entirely convinced by any.

It's when you believe in the possibility of a God, but you really have no clue for sure how it all works.

So, im not atheist, as i see no absolute proof in "there is no god".

But i dont believe that the earth was created in 7 24hr days. i dont believe in noah and his ark of two of every kind of animals. i dont believe in snakes being inherently evil. Those are specific Christian examples...but there are other religious views i dont believe in...i picked those because we are all probably familar with them.

I believe there was a man named Jesus..and he was a good man...do i know for sure if God himself spoke to him? No. But does it really matter??? It's the meaning that matters. It's the moral of the story. (In my opinion!)

It's about love, honesty, respect.

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To get the point... I am having conflicts about this for the first time in years. I see all of you enjoying your faith and letting it heal you. I feel left out. I dont have that.
I have no desire to change my views either.
I wish sometimes i were more spiritual...because then it would be easier to feel loved...to feel purpose...and guidance.

But to accept faith for something so selfish seems wrong. I'm not going to start praying every night because i simply want to get better. I wouldnt be that unfair to God. Asking so much and getting so little in return.

But i want acceptance...because heres what i believe. I believe in doing what feels right to you as long as it doesnt affect others negatively. if you are buddhist and you love that about yourself...i think thats swell. i think its beautiful even.

i admire your faith. i admire your passion.

Does anyone understand where i am coming from? How i feel? How do i get healing without changing my personal beliefs? How do i fit in?

Anyone else feel the same way?

Kami
I get where you are coming from. I have not always been a Christian and had alot questions about certain aspects of my faith. But...what is cool about being on these boards is we have alot in common and I try to focus on that part the most. Whether someone is Baptist or Buhddist is not what brought us here. What brought us here is how to overcome our panic and anxiety and depression. So you will have my support on that journey towards getting better. I hope I have your support too
Take care
Jill~

Greetings Kami,

Thank you for sharing your point of view. You said, "But i dont believe that the earth was created in 7 24hr days. i dont believe in noah and his ark of two of every kind of animals. i dont believe in snakes being inherently evil. Those are specific Christian examples..." I am a Christian and I do not believe in these things either because they are not Biblically correct. I can explain later but I challenge you to discover for yourself what I am talking about. I believe there is a lot of confusion even in the realm of being a Christian because we go by what we hear others say or we misunderstand and state things incorrectly instead of reading and understanding what the Bible is really saying.

You also stated, "But to accept faith for something so selfish seems wrong. I'm not going to start praying every night because i simply want to get better. I wouldnt be that unfair to God. Asking so much and getting so little in return." I can sure appreciate you wanting to have the right motives for doing something. God, however, wants you to get better. God loves you and wants to heal and restore you into the image he originally created you to be. He does this by giving you a new heart. God says, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Eze. 36:26. When Jesus speaks of the new heart, He means the mind, the life, the whole being. To have a change of heart is to withdraw the affections from the world, and fasten them upon Christ. To have a new heart is to have a new mind, new purposes, new motives. Love, however, would not be love if it had to be forced on us. We simply have to choose to allow God to take our selfish heart of sin so He can give us a new heart of love. Jesus says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."--Rev 3:20. Jesus stands at the door of our heart waiting for us to open it.

You say, "I have no desire to change my views either." But with a new heart you will view things in a totally different light and have the desire to do so. As part of your description of being an agnostic you said, "It's when you believe in the possibility of a God, but you really have no clue for sure how it all works." Can you see my point that with a new heart you will be able to know God and see how it all works? God is calling you out of darkness into His marvellous light.

He wants to have a loving relationship with you. He wants you to talk to Him. Please read what I recently shared in a reply to SaraHall about prayer. http://bbs.stresscenter.com/ev...=463101646#463101646

I challenge you to Read the New Testament Book of John while prayerfully asking God to show you who He is. As you know, it's your choice. I'm just sharing with you what I know to be true. I hope you choose Jesus who is life itself. Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."--John 14:6.

You spoke multiple times about "feeling" things. Please note that faith is not dependent on feelings. Feeling and faith are as distinct from each other as the east is from the west. Many go through life in darkness and doubt because they do not feel as they desire. But feeling has nothing to do with faith. Faith which works by love and purifies the soul is not a matter of impulse. It ventures out upon the promises of God, firmly believing that what He has said, He is able also to perform.

I hope you have a wonderful day thinking more about the things of God.

God bless!
GIL

Hi all! This is an interesting conversation. Kami, I completely understand. I felt that way years ago. I am a Christian now, but it is a journey. Don't just take what you hear. "Prove all things" Don't just read the bible, study it. Use commentaries and reference books and study guides. There is so much wisdom there. Personally, I always keep in mind that it was written and interpreted by man and therefor it is imperfect. I read alot about other religions (I just finished "The Tao of Physics" and "Mans Search for Meaning".)In different religions, I see the similarities, not the differences. One of my favorite bible scriptures: "For this commandment....is not too difficult for you, nor is it too far off...It is not a secret....But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your mind and in your heart, so that you can do it." Deu:30:11-14, (Amplified Bible translation) As far as the 7 days,to God, "a day is as a thousand years" IIPeter 3: 8. "a thousand years are but yesterday" Psalm 90:4. And it is amazing how many other religions have a story of the flood.
Keep in mind that the bible is also a history of a people. God is in all things, everywhere...God is Love. This is the most important thing! Scientists are finding that the more they discover, the less they know. It is complex and simple at the same time. (Yin and Yang) What an amazing Universe! God is wonderful.

For years I struggled with what to call myself...agnostic was the best fit but seemed to not completely sum it up. I am not into the established religions since I can't get past the silliness of of the stories, and if I can't accept the stories, then what is left? Now I know the answer: Faith.

I've been studying the Taoist principles as outlined in Dr. Wayne Dyer's book "Change your thoughts, change your life" and I briefly looked into "Pantheism". Pantheism states that the Earth is our heaven, which fits my innate belief system. Taoism instructs you to see "God" in everyone and everything...it is the thing that animates all life, makes all things possible. It doesn't judge us worthy or not; punish us, test us, or reward us. It is non-judgemental and available to all. It's the source where you came from, and where you will go back to. If you try to name it or hoard it...it's gone. You must disconnect from it to feel "godless or faithless", which you do by living from your "ego". Once you drop your focus on ego (wealth, reputation, health), you reconnect to your source, the Tao. For me, it works.

In the end, I think all people need faith in something to be happy. You have to feel there's a purpose to your being here and that the world is innately good. Too many religions deliniate the chosen from the damned (of course, they're the chosen ones and non-believers are the damned) and I can't abide a God that would create life just to damn it to eternal torment. The tao doesn't deliniate...whether you know it, love it, or accept it...you benefit just the same. Makes sense to me.

Hi all,

Here is a link to the Wyatt Museum:

http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahs-ark.htm

Please read the full article, on the findings of the ark, and description of the timbers, carbon dating, etc.

Prove all things retain all that proves itself.

Here is another video that you might want to consider, about the substance that holds together every protein molecule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e4zgJXPpI4

Amen and Amen!!!

Hi To All ,
I have a cousin who used to believe the same way that you do...She said that she could not believe in something or someone she had not seen!!!

Today, this very SAME lady is a "born again" Christian!!! We must seek to find the truth!!!

So what if you are wrong, and there is a Heaven and a Hell...Are you willing to take that chance, since there are no certainties in this life...We never know when God will call our number...

What have you got to lose by seeking our Lord and Savior's face??? Ponder upon these things!!!

Please take to heart what Gil and Gman have shared with you!!!

Scientists can no longer disapprove the Bible!!! It is impossible, because it is the true living word of God!!!

I can tell that you are searching for the truth!!! The truth will set you free!!!

Archeologists are finding things from the Bible days...Just think about this one...The Bible was written at least 4,000 years ago, and if you read it, then, you will find, that it is being fulfilled right before our very own eyes!!!

I pray that this helps you in some way!!! Have a beautiful day

May Jesus Bless you to find your way!!!

Hello Kami

It was fun chatting with you yesterday. You are so fun and kind. I think you will be a great asset to the chat family. Each of us is trying to find our way and I think we don't often see how God is working out all the details in our lives but He is most certainly there and working . I don't think of Christianity as religion I think of it as a relationship with Christ and that's what sustains me and guides me and comforts me. If you want to talk you can PM me here. And I look forward to seeing you in chat again

Jill~

Hi Kami,

I would like to take the time now to explain what I meant in reference to the three specific Christian examples that you mentioned as things that you did not believe in. I said that I did not believe in these things either because they were not Biblically correct. Please know that I am not trying to point a finger at you or put you on the spot. As I pointed out, all of us can be mistaken about things and I want to make sure that nobody is mislead as to what I believe because I did not take the time to explain in my first reply.

The statement, “the earth was created in 7 24hr days,” is not true because God created everything in six days. This can be seen in the first chapter of Genesis as it takes you through the six days of creation. The first three verses of chapter two say, “Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” This can further be seen in Exodus chapter 20:11 which is the last verse in the fourth commandment. It states, “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” As you can see there is a very important distinction between the first six days of the week and the seventh.

The statement, “Noah and his ark of two of every kind of animals,” is not true because the Bible does not say that Noah was to take two of every kind of animal on the ark. Only the unclean animals were taken by twos. There were seven of every clean animal. Also the birds were in sevens. This can be found in Genesis 7:2, 3. “Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.” If you are not familiar with what is meant by clean and unclean animals you can get an idea of this in the book of Leviticus chapter 11.

In reference to “snakes being inherently evil,” I do not know exactly what you mean by this, but everything in this world is affected by evil in some way, shape or form. Sin and evil originated with Satan. Guilt is not always involved as the result of evil. Guilt does not apply to animals because they do not have any moral responsibility like humans do. Only man has knowledge of moral values and therefore can be condemned as guilty for any evil thoughts or actions. Poisonous snakes can be dangerous and deadly just as many other types of animals. Animals are used symbolically or as a comparison in the Bible. An example of a comparison made to a serpent would be, “Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man; Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war. They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders’ poison is under their lips.”—Psalm 140:1-3. Here is a verse that uses four different animals in one sentence. “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.”—Matthew 10:16. Animals have different characteristics that are used to apply or imply things we can relate to.

Satan is referred to as a serpent in a symbolic sense. Revelation 12: 9 says, “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” This is because back in the garden of Eden Satan assumed the form of a serpent and used it as a medium to talk to Eve and ended up deceiving her. This you can read about in Genesis chapter three.

Satan is behind all the evil and what ended up happening to the characteristics of snakes, and all other animals, was his doing. Of course, Adam and Eve were involved in the sinful fall of this world because they chose to disobey God by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God had told them that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they would die. But this is where the good news comes in. God’s plan of salvation was already in place. Revelation 13:8 refers to Jesus as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. This means that Jesus had volunteered ahead of time to give His own life as a ransom for fallen humanity. The promise of a Saviour was sure and Jesus did come to this world in the likeness of sinful flesh and on the cross bore all of our sins. He died and rose again so that we might die in Him and be raised anew to live forever throughout eternity. As I said before, a choice has to be made and I’m so glad that I chose Jesus… the author and finisher of my faith. I shared a story as to how this came about for me in previous post if you would like to read it. http://bbs.stresscenter.com/ev...?r=50710318#50710318

Have a wonderful day!

Originally posted by equestrian1:
I always keep in mind that it was written and interpreted by man and therefor it is imperfect.

Hello equestrian1,

Where in the Bible does it say that it is imperfect? If you are imperfect yourself, how do you know that it is not perfect?

I was rather taken back when I read this and naturally you are free to believe what you want. I was not going to bother to comment to this but my conscience would not let it get away from me. It is because you made this statement claiming to be a Christian and I did not want what you said to be a possible stumbling block to those who may already be struggling over what Christianity and the Bible is all about.

If you believe that the Bible is the Word of God then the term “Imperfect Word of God” would be an oxymoron. How can the Scripture be given for instruction in righteousness [right doing] if the scripture is not right? And how can the Scripture be used for correction if it is not correct itself?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”—2 Tim 3:16, 17. In His Word, God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience.

How do we test everything by the Scripture if it is imperfect? “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”—Isaiah 8:20. Notice that the scripture is comprised of the law and the testimony and “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure.”—Ps 19:7.

“When ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God.”—1 Thess 2:13.

“But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.”—2 Cor 4:7.

God has been pleased to communicate His truth to the world by human agencies, and He Himself, by His Holy Spirit, qualified men and enabled them to do this work. He guided the mind in the selection of what to speak and what to write. The treasure was intrusted to earthen vessels, yet it is, none the less, from Heaven. The obedient, believing child of God beholds in the testimony of God the glory of a divine power, full of grace and truth.

“As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried.”—Ps 18:30

“The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth purified seven times.”—Ps 12:6.

“We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”—2 Pet 1:19-21. Please note that the word prophecy applies to any inspired utterance and is not limited to the foretelling of future events.

Jesus came into this world with His divinity clothed in humanity. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh yet without sin as the perfect Lamb of God. In Christ was the uniting of the human and divine and so the Bible was given to us also as the uniting of the human and divine.

The Bible even claims the “Word” to be Jesus Himself. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.”—John 1:1, 14. God is ever present and working through the Scriptures. This is why the Bible is “alive.” Hebrew 4:12 says, “For the word of God is quick [alive], and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Even in describing Jesus, Revelation 1:16 says, “Out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword.”

I’m so thankful for “ Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower there of falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.”—1 Peter 1:23-25.

Have a great day my friend.
GIL