Well, I've made it to session four and things are looking up. I'm kind of confused because in the group discussion, Lucinda talks about magical thinking. She says she finally learned to not believe in fairy tales or Santa Claus or how if she thought about something hard enough it would come true. But then in the next sentence she talks about how she believes in God (or the listener's own interpretation of God).
I honestly don't understand what the difference is.
For that matter, what's the difference between magical thinking and prayer? On the one hand I could believe, "If I step on a crack I'll break my mother's back" and on the other hand I could believe, "If I nail these two pieces of wood together and want something really hard, it will happen."
I don't mean to insult anyone's faith, but aren't these the same thing? Wouldn't it be better to forget about both of them and concentrate on something that has concrete results, like anti-depressant medication? Or changing one's thinking patterns?
Confused and looking for guidance...
What's the difference between magical thinking and believing in God?
Hi Doogie:
The difference is that many people hold a firm believe in God, while they realize that Santa Claus is a myth (though based on a real person) and fairy tales came from some writers' imaginations.
I for one, have no doubt that God exists. While I doubted it for a long time, years have passed and I've come to know that it's true. My medical background and my life experience lead me to know (or some would say believe) that there is a God who knows and loves each one of us, and has a purpose for our existence and our time on earth. Prayer is a person's way of communicating with God, and I (among others) know that God is there, actually listening to what we have to say in our prayers, and actually caring what happens in our lives.
I also know (believe) that faith in God produces concrete results. Without getting into too much detail here, I can think of many circumstances and events in my life, where I can step back and see God's actions and His handiwork. I also know of times and events that I simply would not have survived without His presence or intercession. With that comes the knowledge that antidepressants and medicine really did nothing to help me. It wasn't until I opened up and accepted the presence of God in the world and in my life, that I made any headway from my recovery from anxiety and depression. The same is true with my recovery from drug and alcohol addiction. And I know of times when the prayers of others actually helped me through the darkest times of my life. One of those times would have been the sudden death of my husband 12 years ago. If not for God, prayers and faith, I'd be laying in the grave beside him - right now.
For many people, me included, the difference between magical thinking and believing in God would be like the difference in believing in Hansel and Gretel and the fact that tomorrow will eventually come.
I've thought long and hard about your problems with God and the fact that your anxiety destroyed your faith in Him. Now, I contend that it's not that you don't believe in God, you just are angry with Him. You don't believe that He is there for you. That is a position that I've occupied many times, but will hopefully never visit again.
Hope I've helped~
Lynnier
The difference is that many people hold a firm believe in God, while they realize that Santa Claus is a myth (though based on a real person) and fairy tales came from some writers' imaginations.
I for one, have no doubt that God exists. While I doubted it for a long time, years have passed and I've come to know that it's true. My medical background and my life experience lead me to know (or some would say believe) that there is a God who knows and loves each one of us, and has a purpose for our existence and our time on earth. Prayer is a person's way of communicating with God, and I (among others) know that God is there, actually listening to what we have to say in our prayers, and actually caring what happens in our lives.
I also know (believe) that faith in God produces concrete results. Without getting into too much detail here, I can think of many circumstances and events in my life, where I can step back and see God's actions and His handiwork. I also know of times and events that I simply would not have survived without His presence or intercession. With that comes the knowledge that antidepressants and medicine really did nothing to help me. It wasn't until I opened up and accepted the presence of God in the world and in my life, that I made any headway from my recovery from anxiety and depression. The same is true with my recovery from drug and alcohol addiction. And I know of times when the prayers of others actually helped me through the darkest times of my life. One of those times would have been the sudden death of my husband 12 years ago. If not for God, prayers and faith, I'd be laying in the grave beside him - right now.
For many people, me included, the difference between magical thinking and believing in God would be like the difference in believing in Hansel and Gretel and the fact that tomorrow will eventually come.
I've thought long and hard about your problems with God and the fact that your anxiety destroyed your faith in Him. Now, I contend that it's not that you don't believe in God, you just are angry with Him. You don't believe that He is there for you. That is a position that I've occupied many times, but will hopefully never visit again.
Hope I've helped~
Lynnier
Think about a magic show. The magician, magician's assistants, and probably magicians before him, put a lot of work into making their "trick" seem real. In reality, a lot of study, practice and planning have gone into making something look amazing.
We the audience may "ooh" and "ahh", and have fun, but the magician is being methodical and disciplined--because he/she is at work.
When I first heard "magical thinking", I was a bit confused, too. But after while, I came to think of it as something like this: when we are a child in the audience of a magic show, it's alright to be satisfied with the phrase "it's magic", but as an adult it's wise to recognize that there's a lot more to it than that. Specifically: work.
I’m so glad you asked this question. It’s really key to have a grasp of this lesson.
When Lucinda speaks, she’s careful, but not completely guarded. She doesn’t overanalyze every word, phrase and concept. And while some things maybe confusing--after awhile, we realize her illustrations have a variety of applications and will be applicable in a variety of situations.
This is something we can learn from her: It is rarely necessary to choose just the right words and explain our feelings and definitions precisely, because often more general explanations are enough. Also, if we are going to live more productively—we can’t get bogged down in the semantics.
When Lucinda says "magical thinking"—it can conjure up a bunch of associations and ideas, such as the examples you mentioned. However, one of the challenges of the lessons, intentional or unintentional, is to get past distracting associations and get to the heart of the matter.
So what is Lesson 4 about? Expectations.
This is a tough one, because if has to do with evaluating our efforts and “work ethic”. and for many of us, who are recovering perfectionists. . . we have a lot of difficulty admitting when enough is enough. Also, we tend to have blind spots and/or anxiety regarding things that we have to put more effort into.
You know better than I do what blind spots you have. But my guess is you are a perfectionist, too.
This lesson can help you to be less intense, so that you can begin to let down some of your walls and let the light shine in on things that have gone neglected.
Lesson 4 can be very emotional and quite uncomfortable. Go easy on yourself with it.
If later you begin to understand why Lucinda may have used those examples: that's cool, too. But that is not the most important thing.
Stay committed. Do the reading, test and homework. You will prob have an “aha!” moment, but don’t push yourself to get it all at once, or all this week. (Chances are you will refer to this lesson in the future as you are ready to learn new things. So don't push yourself this too much this time around.)
Happy New Year!
By the way, Lynnier, the writing in your reply is just beautiful! I was really touched.
We the audience may "ooh" and "ahh", and have fun, but the magician is being methodical and disciplined--because he/she is at work.
When I first heard "magical thinking", I was a bit confused, too. But after while, I came to think of it as something like this: when we are a child in the audience of a magic show, it's alright to be satisfied with the phrase "it's magic", but as an adult it's wise to recognize that there's a lot more to it than that. Specifically: work.
I’m so glad you asked this question. It’s really key to have a grasp of this lesson.
When Lucinda speaks, she’s careful, but not completely guarded. She doesn’t overanalyze every word, phrase and concept. And while some things maybe confusing--after awhile, we realize her illustrations have a variety of applications and will be applicable in a variety of situations.
This is something we can learn from her: It is rarely necessary to choose just the right words and explain our feelings and definitions precisely, because often more general explanations are enough. Also, if we are going to live more productively—we can’t get bogged down in the semantics.
When Lucinda says "magical thinking"—it can conjure up a bunch of associations and ideas, such as the examples you mentioned. However, one of the challenges of the lessons, intentional or unintentional, is to get past distracting associations and get to the heart of the matter.
So what is Lesson 4 about? Expectations.
This is a tough one, because if has to do with evaluating our efforts and “work ethic”. and for many of us, who are recovering perfectionists. . . we have a lot of difficulty admitting when enough is enough. Also, we tend to have blind spots and/or anxiety regarding things that we have to put more effort into.
You know better than I do what blind spots you have. But my guess is you are a perfectionist, too.
This lesson can help you to be less intense, so that you can begin to let down some of your walls and let the light shine in on things that have gone neglected.
Lesson 4 can be very emotional and quite uncomfortable. Go easy on yourself with it.
If later you begin to understand why Lucinda may have used those examples: that's cool, too. But that is not the most important thing.
Stay committed. Do the reading, test and homework. You will prob have an “aha!” moment, but don’t push yourself to get it all at once, or all this week. (Chances are you will refer to this lesson in the future as you are ready to learn new things. So don't push yourself this too much this time around.)
Happy New Year!
By the way, Lynnier
, the writing in your reply is just beautiful! I was really touched.I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.
Psalm 13:6
Psalm 13:6
Doogjet, Lucinda only says what she does because that is the 'politically correct' way to do it (Not putting Lucinda down! she is a Christian!)
I am living proof that there is difference between prayer and magical thinking!
As a child my legs were crooked, God healed them. Later in life I got into a electric cattle fence (appx 50,000 volts, but low amperage(amps kill not voltage) and messed up both kneew, He healed them again.
in 1997 i was diagnosed with throat cancer, yes I took the treatments(God expects us to use good sense!) and was very-very malnourished and almost died 3 times, but finally came out of it free of cancer! Here I am 11 yrs later still cancer free. I saw a personal friend diagnosed with cancer, he is cancer free!!
So yes there IS a difference. The main thing about Christianity is a deep walk with God, a relationship with Him. I would not have belived in God unless the prophesies about Jesus had been fulfilled(400 of them and 109 were fulfilled in one day during his crucifix) and I grew near to God and he has doneso much for me that there is no humanly possible answer for many of them!!
Take care,
Rod
I am living proof that there is difference between prayer and magical thinking!
As a child my legs were crooked, God healed them. Later in life I got into a electric cattle fence (appx 50,000 volts, but low amperage(amps kill not voltage) and messed up both kneew, He healed them again.
in 1997 i was diagnosed with throat cancer, yes I took the treatments(God expects us to use good sense!) and was very-very malnourished and almost died 3 times, but finally came out of it free of cancer! Here I am 11 yrs later still cancer free. I saw a personal friend diagnosed with cancer, he is cancer free!!
So yes there IS a difference. The main thing about Christianity is a deep walk with God, a relationship with Him. I would not have belived in God unless the prophesies about Jesus had been fulfilled(400 of them and 109 were fulfilled in one day during his crucifix) and I grew near to God and he has doneso much for me that there is no humanly possible answer for many of them!!
Take care,
Rod
I dunno. I mean, I get what you're all saying, but I can't believe it. To me there is no difference between praying to God or to a bottle of milk. They both do nothing. It's all perception in the eyes of the praying person. Miracles are coincidence.
It's not like I haven't tried. I was raised Christian (baptized), went to Sunday School, joined a youth group (for about two weeks before the youth minister became a jerk), took a religious studies class in school and went to see Joel Osteen when he was in town a few weeks ago. I've invited Mormons and people of other religions into my house when they came by. I've read the Bible. (Well, parts of it, anyway).
I just can't believe. Sorry, guys.
It's not like I haven't tried. I was raised Christian (baptized), went to Sunday School, joined a youth group (for about two weeks before the youth minister became a jerk), took a religious studies class in school and went to see Joel Osteen when he was in town a few weeks ago. I've invited Mormons and people of other religions into my house when they came by. I've read the Bible. (Well, parts of it, anyway).
I just can't believe. Sorry, guys.
-
karenLeigh
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 3:35 pm
I realize some people assume that because they haven't experienced the presence of God or answered prayer that means that God isn't real, doesn't exist. That is magical thinking.
Some people, including myself, have experienced Him, not just believe in Him by faith. Faith is the vehicle He uses to reveal Himself to us. That was His choice, not ours. I'd rather He appear in bodily form and be real in that way.
It wasn't magical thinking when God allowed me to sense His Presence intensley for 3 days in April of 1972 and during this time told me a young man I had talked to was going to become a believer also. It wasn't magical thinking when the doctors told a friend of mine that he and his wife would never, never have kids and they had been trying for several years. He told me God had given him a promise for children and a wife about 15 years before that. I was with him in college then and I remember him telling me that then. A year or two after this they had their first of 4 children. I know, you don't buy it, fine. But the doctors can't explain it.
So, don't assume [ass u me] that because you haven't experienced something that it's not real. I have experienced Christ and His Presence, not by faith, but by experience. You have no clue what that is like and what that brings to a person and what it does to a person. Look up Ephesians 3:19 in the amplified version of the Bible. That exactly mirrors my experience in 1972. So, if it's magical thinking, how would I have experienced the exact same thing as Paul? I didn't find this verse until about 1995 or 1996, 24 years or so after I had had the experience. I didn't know how to put what had happened to me in context until I discovered that verse in the amplified Bible. I would also recommend you checking out a Christian group called the Navigators. Dawson Trotman was its founder and his organization became one of the corner stones for discipling those who came to Christ through Billy Graham. These people are still doing this to this day.
Read the biography of Hudson Taylor, DAvid Brainard, Corrie Ten Boom, Deietrich BonHoeffer, Joni Eareckson Tada, Billy Graham, Dawson Trottman. All of these people experienced the reality of Christ in their lives. Consider Lucinda and her organization. Why does it exist? One other person who is about my age I would recommend investigating is Jackie Pullinger. The link below is a book she has written. Drug addicts have been instantaneously healed of their addiction, cold turkey, through her ministry. You can get VHS Tapes or DVDs showing the actual prayer times when some of these folks were healed. That takes a lot more power than just magical thinking.
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Dragon-St ... 0830734007" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Dragon-St ... 0734007</A>
This is her ministries website or was. I can't get the link to work.
<A HREF="http://www.ststephenssociety.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ststephenssociety.org/</A>
By the way, I am not angry. I simply believe that many people have been sold a bill of goods today that is baseless and a lie due to the mainstream media, those in power of it, and they have no interest in the truth. They simply want to push their beliefs and agenda onto our society.
Some people, including myself, have experienced Him, not just believe in Him by faith. Faith is the vehicle He uses to reveal Himself to us. That was His choice, not ours. I'd rather He appear in bodily form and be real in that way.
It wasn't magical thinking when God allowed me to sense His Presence intensley for 3 days in April of 1972 and during this time told me a young man I had talked to was going to become a believer also. It wasn't magical thinking when the doctors told a friend of mine that he and his wife would never, never have kids and they had been trying for several years. He told me God had given him a promise for children and a wife about 15 years before that. I was with him in college then and I remember him telling me that then. A year or two after this they had their first of 4 children. I know, you don't buy it, fine. But the doctors can't explain it.
So, don't assume [ass u me] that because you haven't experienced something that it's not real. I have experienced Christ and His Presence, not by faith, but by experience. You have no clue what that is like and what that brings to a person and what it does to a person. Look up Ephesians 3:19 in the amplified version of the Bible. That exactly mirrors my experience in 1972. So, if it's magical thinking, how would I have experienced the exact same thing as Paul? I didn't find this verse until about 1995 or 1996, 24 years or so after I had had the experience. I didn't know how to put what had happened to me in context until I discovered that verse in the amplified Bible. I would also recommend you checking out a Christian group called the Navigators. Dawson Trotman was its founder and his organization became one of the corner stones for discipling those who came to Christ through Billy Graham. These people are still doing this to this day.
Read the biography of Hudson Taylor, DAvid Brainard, Corrie Ten Boom, Deietrich BonHoeffer, Joni Eareckson Tada, Billy Graham, Dawson Trottman. All of these people experienced the reality of Christ in their lives. Consider Lucinda and her organization. Why does it exist? One other person who is about my age I would recommend investigating is Jackie Pullinger. The link below is a book she has written. Drug addicts have been instantaneously healed of their addiction, cold turkey, through her ministry. You can get VHS Tapes or DVDs showing the actual prayer times when some of these folks were healed. That takes a lot more power than just magical thinking.
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Dragon-St ... 0830734007" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Dragon-St ... 0734007</A>
This is her ministries website or was. I can't get the link to work.
<A HREF="http://www.ststephenssociety.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ststephenssociety.org/</A>
By the way, I am not angry. I simply believe that many people have been sold a bill of goods today that is baseless and a lie due to the mainstream media, those in power of it, and they have no interest in the truth. They simply want to push their beliefs and agenda onto our society.
Last edited by Don57 on Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Life's battles don't always go to the stronger, the smarter, the faster hand; But sooner or later the person who wins is the one who thinks "I can." Author Unknown
http://dp19032k9.webs.com
http://dp19032k9.webs.com
I don't want to get into an argument about the origins of the universe, but to believe that all of it occurred by chance, i.e. without an intelligence behind it seems to me to be magical thinking. And such theories are simply that, theories, as I see it. They can not be proven as fact even though they are presented as such. No one can explain how life began, no one. There are theories, yes, but no one knows and scientists admit that. They can not produce life in the lab using the lifeless compounds and substances believed to have been present when life began. Therefore, such theories are a "faith" or religion of their own.
Life's battles don't always go to the stronger, the smarter, the faster hand; But sooner or later the person who wins is the one who thinks "I can." Author Unknown
http://dp19032k9.webs.com
http://dp19032k9.webs.com
Karen: I don't know what to believe anymore. Since I've started therapy and the program, it just seems that so many of my beliefs have been proven to be wrong. Lucinda seems to be so right about so many things, and when it comes to this I want to believe her, too.
Thanks for listening, everyone.
I know that no one can explain the origins of the universe, either. It's just one of those mysteries of life, I guess...
Thanks for listening, everyone.
I know that no one can explain the origins of the universe, either. It's just one of those mysteries of life, I guess...